UFC 108... Injury strikes again!!

Herring was top 10 I think, once he was 3rd but to be fair he isn't a top fighter. He doesn't have one top opponent on his win list. He lost to Nog 3 times, Cro Cop and Fedor. Plus he lost to guys like MW Tanner, Belfort and...Irish Jake O Brien!

His biggest wins are Igor and a split decision over a Kongo who can't wrestle. Not that impressive.

But I can't understand how you could put guys like Coleman and especially Igor above Randy. Plus you had that disgrace Barnett level with him. What do you have against captain America?

CroCop at his very best. His Pride prime when he was a stone cold killer who could headkick anyone into oblivion would beat ANY heavyweight that has ever fought in the UFC. Including Nog since he entered the UFC. At his very very best the only person in any division ever that could have beaten him was Fedor and even Fedor would have had major major problems with him.

As for the Randy vs CroCop thing, not even close. Randy's three biggest wins both came at LHW. Against Liddell who was always one dimensional and then proceeded to knock Couture out TWICE and Ortiz who always avoided great competition. And Belfort twice who also beat him and is a MW now!.

CroCop destroyed prime Barnett and prime Wanderlei IN THE SAME NIGHT!

If Mirko had fought Fedor on the New Years Card where Hunt got the title shot i really think Fedor would have gotten his first ever loss. Mirko was just incredible in that OpenWeight tournament.

And the guy beat Barnett THREE times. Barnett who battered Couture with ease!


Couture is the single most over-rated fighter of all time IMO. Especially at HW. His record is terrible and the three biggest wins of his career came at LHW. Couture never beat a top ranked HW and is undeserving of such a high ranking. If he hadn't been America he wouldn't have been pushed so hard. The Captain America hero role is the reason he's so loved. It over-shadows the fact that his fighting record is very unimpressive, titles or no titles.

And before anyone talks about title fights and defense.

In his first title reign he made no defenses.

In his second he made 2, both against Pedro Rizzo, then lost the third to Barnett.

In his third he made 1 and lost that fight to Belfort.

In his fourth he made 1 and lost that fight to Liddell

And in his fifth he made 1 against Gonzaga and lost the second to Lesnar.

5 titles reigns, 3 successful defenses, 2 of which were against the very average Pedro Rizzo and one against another average fighter in Gonzaga. Not at all impressive.

payneNglory1 wrote:Thats not an official top 10 ranking,thats just some random Sherdog Pride fans opinion.

good try though

actually it was compiled from the old sherdog rankings using wayback.com, or something like that, which allows you to see old versions of websites.

so it was the official sherdog rankings.

ChelseaQuinsfan wrote:Herring was top 10 I think, once he was 3rd but to be fair he isn't a top fighter. He doesn't have one top opponent on his win list. He lost to Nog 3 times, Cro Cop and Fedor. Plus he lost to guys like MW Tanner, Belfort and...Irish Jake O Brien!

His biggest wins are Igor and a split decision over a Kongo who can't wrestle. Not that impressive.

But I can't understand how you could put guys like Coleman and especially Igor above Randy. Plus you had that disgrace Barnett level with him. What do you have against captain America?

nothing really, i like him as a person and as a fighter, but he is a product of the UFC hype machine and was given too many title shots without earning them.

manschesthair_utd wrote:

payneNglory1 wrote:Thats not an official top 10 ranking,thats just some random Sherdog Pride fans opinion.

good try though

actually it was compiled from the old sherdog rankings using wayback.com, or something like that, which allows you to see old versions of websites.

so it was the official sherdog rankings.

Anyone trying to claim Herring wasn't a top 10 fighter needs to go and get some DVDs of Pride!

If Fedor fought Cro Cop 10 times, he would win 9. The fight Cro Cop would win would be the one his best ever night. Fedor beat Cro Cop at his own game, we didn't even see the ground game for large parts. Fedor could take Cro Cop down using his judo and on the ground he could sub or GnP him. How would Cro Cop stop that. I know he trained with Werdum on the ground, it doesn't mean he now is Werdum on the ground. Fedor beat Nog on the ground so I think he could handle Cro Cop. Anfield you are talking about Cro Cop's best ever night, unfortuanatley he didn't have those nights too often.

"And Belfort twice who also beat him and is a MW now"

Belfort beat him by cut and at the time he was pretty big. Randy is a LHW himself. Plus if you want to use that logic, Cro Cops win over Wandy is taineted because Wandy is a MW now. Obviously not but you get the idea.


"And the guy beat Barnett THREE times. Barnett who battered Couture with ease!"

The same Barnett who was caught for roids after there fight. One thing I love about Cro Cop is that he destroyed that cheat THREE times so i love Cro Cop a little more now.


"In his first title reign he made no defenses.

In his second he made 2, both against Pedro Rizzo, then lost the third to Barnett.

In his third he made 1 and lost that fight to Belfort.

In his fourth he made 1 and lost that fight to Liddell

And in his fifth he made 1 against Gonzaga and lost the second to Lesnar."

Barnett was busted for roids, Belfort won with a cut, Liddell was at his best and Lesner was just too big and strong.

As for Gonzaga being average



He isn't average, just a choker.


"is Pride prime when he was a stone cold killer who could headkick anyone into oblivion would beat ANY heavyweight that has ever fought in the UFC"

Except Lesner. Unless it was at the Pride Openweight tourtument.

actually fedor/crocop did have quite alot of ground fighting, and fedor wasnt able to have him in much trouble whatsoever.

anyway Barnett roiding against Randy isnt an excuse for Randy, you think Barnett was clean for the crocop fights?? lol, in japan with no tests?

he has been roiding his whole career so at least we have one constant in this debate

anyway Barnett roiding against Randy isnt an excuse for Randy, you think Barnett was clean for the crocop fights?? lol, in japan with no tests?

he has been roiding his whole career so at least we have one constant in this debate

True thats why im now on the Cro Cop bandwagon Barnett, now thats a fighter I do hate.

I still say he is the 3rd greatest HW, but I was just pointing out that Fedor is the best and Randy is not as bad as you guys are saying. Sure he has been pushed a lot because of his age and image, but I mean he still pulls of impossible wins. No one thought he could beat Sylvia (who was good at the time) Gonzaga, Tito, Liddell or Belfort (twice). But he did. He deserves 4th I think.

maybe, but Coleman owns the most impossible comeback of them all.

started 6-0, lost 4 IN A ROW, he was done at this point.

then won the 16 man 2000 gp and became the world's number one fighter once again!

ChelseaQuinsfan wrote:If Fedor fought Cro Cop 10 times, he would win 9. The fight Cro Cop would win would be the one his best ever night. Fedor beat Cro Cop at his own game, we didn't even see the ground game for large parts. Fedor could take Cro Cop down using his judo and on the ground he could sub or GnP him. How would Cro Cop stop that. I know he trained with Werdum on the ground, it doesn't mean he now is Werdum on the ground. Fedor beat Nog on the ground so I think he could handle Cro Cop. Anfield you are talking about Cro Cop's best ever night, unfortuanatley he didn't have those nights too often.

"And Belfort twice who also beat him and is a MW now"

Belfort beat him by cut and at the time he was pretty big. Randy is a LHW himself. Plus if you want to use that logic, Cro Cops win over Wandy is taineted because Wandy is a MW now. Obviously not but you get the idea.


"And the guy beat Barnett THREE times. Barnett who battered Couture with ease!"

The same Barnett who was caught for roids after there fight. One thing I love about Cro Cop is that he destroyed that cheat THREE times so i love Cro Cop a little more now.


"In his first title reign he made no defenses.

In his second he made 2, both against Pedro Rizzo, then lost the third to Barnett.

In his third he made 1 and lost that fight to Belfort.

In his fourth he made 1 and lost that fight to Liddell

And in his fifth he made 1 against Gonzaga and lost the second to Lesnar."

Barnett was busted for roids, Belfort won with a cut, Liddell was at his best and Lesner was just too big and strong.

As for Gonzaga being average



He isn't average, just a choker.


"is Pride prime when he was a stone cold killer who could headkick anyone into oblivion would beat ANY heavyweight that has ever fought in the UFC"

Except Lesner. Unless it was at the Pride Openweight tourtument.

If Fedor and CroCop fought ten times and both were at their best, Fedor would win 7, CroCop would win 3. CroCop has the greatest takedown defence ever and even Fedor would have trouble getting him to the ground.

Wandi is the great LHW of all time, and when Mirko beat him, that was Wandi at the peak of his powers. Randy beat a very average Vitor who was in a phase of not really wanting to fight.

Barnett would beat Couture ten times out of ten. Roids or no roids.

Chuck at his best was one dimensional. A win from a cut is still a win. Lesnar was too big agreed.

Gonzaga is average. Werdum battered him twice. Werdum the BJJ specialist. Stopped him with strikes. Twice. Show that video as much as you want. I have a very nice video of GSP getting knocked stupid by Serra.

Mirko at his best, in a ring, would have headkicked Lesnar into oblivion.

When Fedor takes someone down, he doesn't shoot like a wrestler, he uses his highly skilled Judo. Very hard to defend.

Disagree that Barnett would beat Andy Wang without roids 10 times out of 10.

"Chuck at his best was one dimensional. A win from a cut is still a win. Lesnar was too big agreed"

Chuck is not a one dimensional fighter! Besides his striking he has very good wrestling, better than Tito, decent BJJ and a background in Karate. In fact he is very similar to Cro Cop in styles. Plus he is arguably the greatest LHW of all time, him or Wandy and Chuck won there fight.

"Gonzaga is average. Werdum battered him twice. Werdum the BJJ specialist. Stopped him with strikes. Twice. Show that video as much as you want. I have a very nice video of GSP getting knocked stupid by Serra."

GSP has nothing to do with this, my point is if Gonzaga is average, Cro Cop was Cro Coped by an average fighter. He didn't, Gonzaga is not average. Werdum is a very good fighter, top 10 quality. Lets see Gonzaga broke Randys arm, was ontop of Werdum and pounding on him and rocked Carwin really badly and took him down going to side control. He still lost all three fights. He is a chocker not average. If Cro Cop is the greatest striker of all time, Gonzaga KOed the best ever striker in MMA. Fluke or no Fluke, Underestimated or Overestimated you have to be a pretty good striker. plus he is pretty good on the ground so I wouldn't call him an average fighter. Just a choker.


Mirko at his best, in a ring, would have headkicked Lesnar into oblivion.

Maybe in a ring, with Pride rules but even then I doubt it. Lesner has the second best takedowns after GSP and its not just a matter of skill, its strength as well. If Cro Cop got in the sprawl position, Lesner could litteraly lift him above his head. Cro Cop never faced anyone like Lesner. Waterman and Sapp are not legit comparison.

in a pride fight, Lesnar is the perfect match-up for Mirko, technically poor striker, crocop could either kick him to bits from the outside (no-on can catch that lightning kick unless your name is fedor and you can eat headkicks) or just wait for the inevitable shoot from Brock, avoid like a master and soccerkick him to hell.

Or Lesner catches him takes him down and turns his face to burger meat

Plus imagine a Lesner soccer kick. Not pretty.

maybe, but Coleman owns the most impossible comeback of them all.

started 6-0, lost 4 IN A ROW, he was done at this point.

then won the 16 man 2000 gp and became the world's number one fighter once again!

Ye he does but I don't think thats enought to put him over Randy. Out of the fights Randy fought and won for the title, how many would Coleman win?

Man theres too much Crocop and Couture bashing going on here!

Coleman better than Couture? I dont think so, I guess we will have to see who comes out on top of their fight. Although at Lhw It should settle who is the 4th best Heavy. Age cant be an excuse for either man!!

If Coleman had of been in with Gonzaga I think there would have been a very different outcome. Couture looked awsome in the fights against Syliva and Gonzaga. I dont think Coleman would have.

I still think Mirko > Randy. Maby not the titles but every time I think that he beat Barnett and Wanderlei in 1 night It still shocks me. They were both top p4p guys not just top of their devision (or close to top in Barnetts case!) and he beat them back to back. I dont think Couture could have done that. Mirko had a short prime and he is still young enough to damage his legacy but for now I think he did enough back in the day to cememnt his place. Although if he looses to Rothwell and Couture beats another HOF'er on Paper it will give Randy a good arguement to be ranked over him. Since both men are actively fighting I think there is a chance they can swap places.

But I really think Shammy is 3rd, he beat Ros Clifton after all!

yeah, you could say he beat him into a.........


ok maybe too soon.

It ashtonishing how this thread has developed from breaking news that GG is injured, to a who won first 2 rounds of Mirko-JDS, to a how good is JDS, to who is best 3 HW of all time, to is Crocop overated?, to how well Lesnar would have done to pride and now Coleman v Couture who was better....




Perhaps a change of title for the thread Ben?

Ye Randy was incredible in the Sylvia and Gonzaga fights. I doubt Coleman would have done the same. Randy has to be 4th.

"still think Mirko > Randy. Maby not the titles but every time I think that he beat Barnett and Wanderlei in 1 night It still shocks me"

Plus Barnett was on the roids no doubt.

But niether of them can hold a candle to Shamrock, your right. He needed roids to beat Clifton.


"It ashtonishing how this thread has developed from breaking news that GG is injured, to a who won first 2 rounds of Mirko-JDS, to a how good is JDS, to who is best 3 HW of all time, to is Crocop overated?, to how well Lesnar would have done to pride and now Coleman v Couture who was better...."

Ye hahaha Im still not sure how that happened. You forgot to add who is the best up and comer, Cain, JDS or Carwin.

manschesthair_utd wrote:yeah, you could say he beat him into a.........


ok maybe too soon.

Living death?

redmeanie77 yeah I forgot this was a thread about Gonzaga being injured! haha so much for that one! I should just edit the title and call it Couture vs Corcop!

ChelseaQuinsfan have you read JDS said he wants to fight anyway rather than wait on someone highly ranked being ready. Im glad to hear he is staying active. Who is ready to go? I wonder if Dana still has Dan Severns phone number!

I haven't read that yet but thats pretty good. Him vs Barry could be a fun fight but Dos Santos is way to good on the ground. He was training with Maia recently (so were the Nog bros) and he said he was very impressed with what he saw. He still needs work but he is getting there.

I think Herring would be a good fight as well, Herring is a classic version of a gatekeeper.

Ben you should edit the title and call it:

Cro Cop vs Dos Santos vs Fedor vs Nog vs Coleman vs Randy vs Carwin vs Cain vs Lesner vs Herring ect ect

ChelseaQuinsfan wrote:

Chuck is not a one dimensional fighter! Besides his striking he has very good wrestling, better than Tito, decent BJJ and a background in Karate. In fact he is very similar to Cro Cop in styles. Plus he is arguably the greatest LHW of all time, him or Wandy and Chuck won there fight.

Lesner has the second best takedowns after GSP and its not just a matter of skill, its strength as well. If Cro Cop got in the sprawl position, Lesner could litteraly lift him above his head. Cro Cop never faced anyone like Lesner. Waterman and Sapp are not legit comparison.

The first time Liddell used his wrestling for anything other than takedown defense was against Wandi when he got worried about getting KO'd. He's a one dimensional fighter. Nothing more.

Chuck is the UFC's greatest LHW ever, he's not the best ever or even in the argument. Him beating Wandi when both are shot means nothing. Rampage beat both. Is he better than both? Liddell was a poor man's CroCop, good takedown defence but not nearly as good as Mirko's. Good striker. But CroCop is the best striker MMA has ever seen.

Lesnar does not have the second best takedowns after GSP. He just has a size advantage. I can think of a half dozen fighters with better takedowns. Probably more actually. Waterman is huge and a great wrestler. Mirko fought Sapp in K1 so not sure why he's mentioned.

rudeboyben84 wrote:Man theres too much Crocop and Couture bashing going on here!

Coleman better than Couture? I dont think so, I guess we will have to see who comes out on top of their fight. Although at Lhw It should settle who is the 4th best Heavy. Age cant be an excuse for either man!!

But the fact that they peaked at different times is. And Randy has been far more active over the last 8 years than Coleman(15 fights as opposed to 9). Fair enough Randy has had two separate one year lay-offs in that time but Coleman took 3 full years off and has had major knee, shoulder and back surgeries.

Coleman was at his best from 99 to 2001. Randy's peak came at LHW from 2003 - 2005. Beating Tito, Vitor and Chuck.

HW records:
Coleman - 14-8
Randy - 12-7

Colemans is slightly better, but he has fought Fedor twice. He had two 6 fight win streaks. Randy had two 4 fight win streaks.

As a HW i think Coleman was better. As an overall fighter i'd go with Randy, just about. Couture clearly far better at LHW. Althought that being said, Coleman's performance against Bonnar was very impressive. Randys against Vera? Not so much.

These two have a combined age of 90! I'm fairly certain that's a record in combat sports!

The first time Liddell used his wrestling for anything other than takedown defense was against Wandi when he got worried about getting KO'd. He's a one dimensional fighter. Nothing more.

Chuck is the UFC's greatest LHW ever, he's not the best ever or even in the argument. Him beating Wandi when both are shot means nothing. Rampage beat both. Is he better than both? Liddell was a poor man's CroCop, good takedown defence but not nearly as good as Mirko's. Good striker. But CroCop is the best striker MMA has ever seen.

Lesnar does not have the second best takedowns after GSP. He just has a size advantage. I can think of a half dozen fighters with better takedowns. Probably more actually. Waterman is huge and a great wrestler. Mirko fought Sapp in K1 so not sure why he's mentioned.

Cro Cop never used his wrestling, in fact he never used more than his striking. Actually Cro Cop is one dimensional as well, but there's nothing wrong with that considering it worked for him. Nog is one dimensional as well and he is the second greatest HW of all time. Only a few fighters, the best P4P ones are really the ones who are well rounded. It worked for Liddell so he stuck with it. For this generation he is a one dimensional fighter but his wrestling is very underated. He just never used it but actually he has better wrestling than Tito. By the end of his career Rampage might be better than both and then after him it will be Machida or Shogun. Rampage is probably better than Liddell anyway. Wandy is the greatest LHW of all time but Liddell has an argument.

Id like to hear who they are. Lesner isn't technically good at taking guys down but his size and strength. just allows him to dump people on there ass. I think Lesner is a bit better than Waterman. I don't know why I mentioned Sapp, I just did.

Coleman's performance against Bonnar was very impressive. Randys against Vera? Not so much

Vera is a lot better than Bonner though. Bonner used to be really good, not so much now.

ChelseaQuinsfan wrote:

The first time Liddell used his wrestling for anything other than takedown defense was against Wandi when he got worried about getting KO'd. He's a one dimensional fighter. Nothing more.

Chuck is the UFC's greatest LHW ever, he's not the best ever or even in the argument. Him beating Wandi when both are shot means nothing. Rampage beat both. Is he better than both? Liddell was a poor man's CroCop, good takedown defence but not nearly as good as Mirko's. Good striker. But CroCop is the best striker MMA has ever seen.

Lesnar does not have the second best takedowns after GSP. He just has a size advantage. I can think of a half dozen fighters with better takedowns. Probably more actually. Waterman is huge and a great wrestler. Mirko fought Sapp in K1 so not sure why he's mentioned.

Cro Cop never used his wrestling, in fact he never used more than his striking. Actually Cro Cop is one dimensional as well, but there's nothing wrong with that considering it worked for him. Nog is one dimensional as well and he is the second greatest HW of all time. Only a few fighters, the best P4P ones are really the ones who are well rounded. It worked for Liddell so he stuck with it. For this generation he is a one dimensional fighter but his wrestling is very underated. He just never used it but actually he has better wrestling than Tito. By the end of his career Rampage might be better than both and then after him it will be Machida or Shogun. Rampage is probably better than Liddell anyway. Wandy is the greatest LHW of all time but Liddell has an argument.

Id like to hear who they are. Lesner isn't technically good at taking guys down but his size and strength. just allows him to dump people on there ass. I think Lesner is a bit better than Waterman. I don't know why I mentioned Sapp, I just did.

CroCop used takedown defence. He's never used wrestling. Because he's not a wrestler. Never has been. Yes he's one dimensional. But he's the best EVER at that dimension.

Disagree that Chuck has better wrestling that Tito. Better college wrestler maybe but in terms of MMA, Tito is superior.

Better wrestling takedowns than Lesnar: Koscheck, Fitch, Coleman, Bader, Valezquez, Hughes. That's literally without even thinking about it. I could prob add a good few more. Lesnar just has size and strength but i'd like to see him fight another wrestler who isn't 50 and 220lbs. and see what happens. Herring was fucked from the first punch. Put Lesnar in with Cain and let's see how he does with takedowns.