UFC 108... Injury strikes again!!

Personally I have him at 3rd, I was thinking Randy could be 3rd but then I realised he has too many losses on his record against mediocre opponents. However he has had 5 titles which is a lot more than Cro Cop. But then at the same time Cro Cop could have won those titles against those opponents as well.

Simply put he can't be over Fedor because Fedor is the greatest HW of all time and as of now the best fighter of all time. I admit that and im not even much of a Fedor fan. Nog has to be above him as well, all circumstances aside Nog still won there fights and Nog is the only fighter to win the Pride and UFC HW belts. Plus he is just a legend, no one can take an ass kicking and come back like he does.

I don't think Cro Cop could beat Fedor, remember Fedor fought Cro Cop at Cro Cops specialty, if he took it to the ground which he could with his judo he would be able to dominate-maybe not finish but still win comfortably.

Funny you keep mentioning Tyson because Tyson is one of my favourite boxers of all time. He built his legacy around the fact that he is the youngest HW champ of all time, he won it at just 20 years of age. Ok he has done things that have messed up his legacy such as bitting Edvanders Holyfield's ear off. But he started lossing fights towards the end, he didn't age well. But still, the way he knocked out Holmes was incredible.

You could compare Tyson to Cro Cop but Tyson belts and I think he should be in the top 10. I do think he could beat any boxer alive at his prime. Could Cro Cop? I just feel he lacks all round skills to beat someone like Fedor or even Lesner.

Funnily enough, I don't think Cro Cop will slip down too soon, maybe a while in the future, but as of right now who do you think will go over him?

As for the AA vs Fedor fight, maybe im overating Arvloskis performance but I thought he was doing well. He wasn't landing that much but niether was Fedor and thats improtant. Up and till that stage he was winning that fight 10-9. I have no idea why he went for that flying knee and its very possible that Fedor would have caught him with something after but still. You don't just give any fighter, espeially Fedor the oppurtunity to land one on your chin. Especially when you have an Arvloski chin.

Barnett has beat Nog and Ranedy, I know he is in the dog house for juicign but he is still young enough and on good enough form that he could take Crocops place, His only problem is he probabally cant capture a major title with Fedor in Strikeforce/Dream and UFC probabally not wanting to go near him! I think Randy is finished at Heavy so he has missed his chance.

Im sure one of they young guys like Cain or JDS has the chance to take over him, or Lesnar if he strings togeather a few defences over credible opponents.

You see whay I mean about Tyson! Most Boxing historians dont have his as top 10 but you pot Tyson in with most of the top 10 on his day and he would hammer tham. Crocop I think is similar because his record looks patchy bad towards the end of his career he took stupid losses as Tyson did. Although Crocop is top 10 ever its because Boxing has a far longer history and therefore far more competition for the top 10. Both fighers on form were wrecking machines with Highlight reel KO's but people just skim reading their record wont fully appreciate them.

rudeboyben84 wrote:Barnett has beat Nog and Ranedy, I know he is in the dog house for juicign but he is still young enough and on good enough form that he could take Crocops place, His only problem is he probabally cant capture a major title with Fedor in Strikeforce/Dream and UFC probabally not wanting to go near him! I think Randy is finished at Heavy so he has missed his chance.

that, plus Crocop beat him 3 times

What exactly puts Cro-cop ahead of Randy?
Is it because Randy has lost more fights?

In Randys whole UFC career he has hardly fought anybody outside the top 10 rankings in either division at the time.(205 and above)
Cro-cop has wins against people as low in wieght as Middle weights on his record(185lb fighters,not Pride MW,s)he was also fed a few fighters to pad his record and give the Japanese audience the KO's they wanted to see.So he has fought alot worse standard of fighters in his career than Randy has.


Randy has lost 6 times to Heavyweights,Cro-cop has lost 7.

Randy has won numerous titles,Cro-cop won a GP fighting only one Heavyweight who he had already beat twice before.

Randy has lost to Barnett,Cro-cop hasn't.

Randy beat Randelman,Cro-cop beat him and lost to him.

Randy has won and lost against the UFC's best ever LHW,Chuck.
Cro-cop has a win and a draw against Prides,Wandi.
Chuck beat Wandi and so did Vitor and Tito who Randy beat.

Randy battered Gonzaga,we all know what Gonzaga did to Cro-cop.

They both lost to Nog.

Randy was two years younger than Cro-cop is now before he even started a pro MMA career and is still successfully competeing at a high level.(last year Randy was HW champ)Cro-cop isn't.

Cro-cop has been coming out with excuses for years,He lost to Nog and said it was because he was to confident,yet we never saw him chasing a rematch,he lost to Fedor and again when it came to a rematch he had excuses(I've got a poorly foot,yet he still managed 6 more fights in Pride without a rematch).So he left for the UFC knowing he had no chance against Fedor or Nog,thinking he would have a better shot at winning a title in the UFC and well we all know what Gonzaga and Kongo did to him.So again instead of fighting through it he leaves for Dream to get some easy wins in a weaker ORG but he bumped into Overeem who dominated him,more Cro-cop excuse's followed.
Instead of just releasing him the UFC offer him a huge 3 fight deal to come back and he again loses in his first fight back.

So he has never won a title in 3 differant Orgs,he has been coming out with excuses his whole career and before he came to the UFC has has fought more fighters that are smaller than him than bigger,yet people always say HE'S the one who has done so well because he's a small HW.

So thats the 3rd best HW in MMA ever is it?

Well if he is thank god it's still a young sport because I've never heard of any combat sport where their 3rd best ever has won nothing and has probably a 50/50 record against HW fighters in or near the top 10.

You may or may not believe me but I am a fan and loved watching Cro-cop fight because you always knew there was a great chance of seeing some fantastic stand up striking and more than likely he was going to get the first rd KO but I do think the hype created was far better than the actual fighter.
The only modern top ranked Heavy he has beat is Barnett.

It's just this Pride is/was or still is the best bullshit that gets me.I think Pride was the best from 97 untill about 2002 but then the UFC evened things up with your Chucks,Tito's,Matt Hughes,BJ's and Pulvers and then in the end owned the contract of all of Prides best fighters (except Fedor)and since Pride finished the sport and the fighters have improved by a mile.



It's these same Pride fans that don't know how to move on and now have an unjust hatred of all things UFC,even though they are usually the first to tune into a UFC event.
The UFC have done more for MMA than any other ORG in the sport,they have the monopoly of the best fighters in the world,they constantly aim to put on the fights that the fans want and they are consistantly putting on good shows but again it's usually the Pride boys that for some strange reason would love for Strikeforce or Dream to put them out of buisness.
So instead of best MMA fighters being in stable hands they would prefer it go to a japanese company that had the best fighters for a while,tried but failed to promote the sport as a global sport and had to sell out to it's closest rivals or another company that could easily go down the same route as all the other big US Orgs.

If it works and is getting bigger,why in the Hell would you want to damage it?

Another blockbuster Payne post

Superb post payne

Barnett has beat Nog and Ranedy, I know he is in the dog house for juicign

Well its not the first time, he has done it THREE fucking times and he beat Randy after jucing as well. He will never be in the top 3 HWs of all time. He is a fucking disgrace and tarnishes the name of MMA. Once I can understand, twice is pretty bad but three times is horrible. The sad thing is I used to be a fan of his and I thought he had a good chance against Fedor before fucking things up. Again.

Payne that was a very good post. There is no doubt the best 2 HWs are Fedor and Nog. The third is undecided, it could very well be Randy. They should fight and see who wins, the winner to decide it. Its fair to say that Randy aged better than Cro Cop

"Im sure one of they young guys like Cain or JDS has the chance to take over him, or Lesnar if he strings togeather a few defences over credible opponents."

True but that could take a couple of years. If Lesner comes back then yes its possible but Id like to see him fight Fedor and see how he does there.

I do see what you mean about Tyson but at the end of the day Tyson has 50 wins with 6 losses. That includes 44 KOs! How many belts did Tyson win? How many times did he defend it? Plus he is possibly the most popular boxer of all time, if a casual person thinks of boxing a few names come there mind. Ali, Tyson and De La Hoya.

So how do you think a Prime Cro Cop would do against todays fighters?

HW top 10

Fedor-Fedor wins comfortably
Nog-Id take Nog but I could see Cro Cop winning still 60-40 Nog
Lesner-Lesner comfortably
Barnett-Cro Cop
Mir-50-50
JDS-50-50
Velasquez-50-50
Carwin-Most likely Carwin comfortably
Werdum-Fight wouldn't happen but if it did 50-50 grappler vs striker

Besides Barnett there isn't someone he could decisivley beat. Maybe he could but I wouldn't put him as favourite and some id give him very little chance. Prime Cro Cop was awesome but the new generation of fighters are something else. You can't assume prime Cro Cop would kill these guys because you don't know how he would handle the newly trained fighters.

He did proper batter that dos caras junior though hahahahaha

Payne, Very good case for Randy being top 3 but his record is so so bad on paper its hard to imagine him as the 3rd best.... I see where your coming from though. They both lost to Nog, Crocop did a lot better though. Randy lost to Barnett badly, Crocop battered him 3 times but Gonzaga flattened Crocop and Randy made him his bitch.... looking at common opponents is a very good way to compare them. Randy has his shit losses though like getting subbed by V.Overeem, Mikhail Illoukhine and Enson Inoue.

Couture is 17-10-0
Crocop is 25-7-2

Couture has all those Titles though, Having said that Titles are not earned in MMA like boxing, Thinking that Lesnar was put straight into a title figth. But Its certainly something that evens up his worse record... So you think 1.Fedor 2.Nog 3.Randy, Would you put Mirko 4th or has his recent performances ruined his legacy for you?

Part of that logic doesnt add up saying tito beat wandy and couture beat him so Couture>Tito>Wandy... because Audley Harrison beat Williams who beat Tyson who beat Holmes who beat Ali therefore Audley>Ali? I know were your coming from but that type of logic doesnt always work.

I think only looking at Coutures losses to heavys doesnt make sence though Payne, loosing to smaller men is surely worse? If you dont credit Mirko for beating them because they are small then surely do count losses against Randy because smaller guys are worse fighters by that logic. I dont think people want UFC to fail. I rathered Pride than UFC and am nostalgic about it but I love UFC, they are on TV more than anything else and are the premier league of MMA. I dont know about other Pride fans but I dont see why anyone would want UFC to go under it would be terible for MMA. I do however hope they loose their monopoly on MMA, and the only reason I want that to happen is so fighters could freely compete between organisations. But I love UFC and I dont see why any MMA fan wouldnt!

ChelseaQuinsfan I think Crocop KO's Mir for sure, I dont rate Mir, I think he batteres Dos Santos if he was in his prime (although Dos Santos isnt in his prime yet) I think he beats Valesques because I think he hits harder than Kongo and would have put him away. Carwin is too big as is Lesnar and I see them winning but I think he beats Werdum who people seem to keep letting off the hook when they are beating him! But its hard to say... Its 2 different eras, Im sure if I asked you Tyson vs Marciano you would say Tyson but its 2 different eras, when you look at Prime vs Prime or if a good fighter was in his Prime today its all a matter of opinion.

payneNglory1 wrote:What exactly puts Cro-cop ahead of Randy?
Is it because Randy has lost more fights?

In Randys whole UFC career he has hardly fought anybody outside the top 10 rankings in either division at the time.(205 and above)
Cro-cop has wins against people as low in wieght as Middle weights on his record(185lb fighters,not Pride MW,s)he was also fed a few fighters to pad his record and give the Japanese audience the KO's they wanted to see.So he has fought alot worse standard of fighters in his career than Randy has.


Randy has lost 6 times to Heavyweights,Cro-cop has lost 7.

Randy has won numerous titles,Cro-cop won a GP fighting only one Heavyweight who he had already beat twice before.

Randy has lost to Barnett,Cro-cop hasn't.

Randy beat Randelman,Cro-cop beat him and lost to him.

Randy has won and lost against the UFC's best ever LHW,Chuck.
Cro-cop has a win and a draw against Prides,Wandi.
Chuck beat Wandi and so did Vitor and Tito who Randy beat.

Randy battered Gonzaga,we all know what Gonzaga did to Cro-cop.

They both lost to Nog.

Randy was two years younger than Cro-cop is now before he even started a pro MMA career and is still successfully competeing at a high level.(last year Randy was HW champ)Cro-cop isn't.

Cro-cop has been coming out with excuses for years,He lost to Nog and said it was because he was to confident,yet we never saw him chasing a rematch,he lost to Fedor and again when it came to a rematch he had excuses(I've got a poorly foot,yet he still managed 6 more fights in Pride without a rematch).So he left for the UFC knowing he had no chance against Fedor or Nog,thinking he would have a better shot at winning a title in the UFC and well we all know what Gonzaga and Kongo did to him.So again instead of fighting through it he leaves for Dream to get some easy wins in a weaker ORG but he bumped into Overeem who dominated him,more Cro-cop excuse's followed.
Instead of just releasing him the UFC offer him a huge 3 fight deal to come back and he again loses in his first fight back.

So he has never won a title in 3 differant Orgs,he has been coming out with excuses his whole career and before he came to the UFC has has fought more fighters that are smaller than him than bigger,yet people always say HE'S the one who has done so well because he's a small HW.

So thats the 3rd best HW in MMA ever is it?

Well if he is thank god it's still a young sport because I've never heard of any combat sport where their 3rd best ever has won nothing and has probably a 50/50 record against HW fighters in or near the top 10.

You may or may not believe me but I am a fan and loved watching Cro-cop fight because you always knew there was a great chance of seeing some fantastic stand up striking and more than likely he was going to get the first rd KO but I do think the hype created was far better than the actual fighter.
The only modern top ranked Heavy he has beat is Barnett.

It's just this Pride is/was or still is the best bullshit that gets me.I think Pride was the best from 97 untill about 2002 but then the UFC evened things up with your Chucks,Tito's,Matt Hughes,BJ's and Pulvers and then in the end owned the contract of all of Prides best fighters (except Fedor)and since Pride finished the sport and the fighters have improved by a mile.



It's these same Pride fans that don't know how to move on and now have an unjust hatred of all things UFC,even though they are usually the first to tune into a UFC event.
The UFC have done more for MMA than any other ORG in the sport,they have the monopoly of the best fighters in the world,they constantly aim to put on the fights that the fans want and they are consistantly putting on good shows but again it's usually the Pride boys that for some strange reason would love for Strikeforce or Dream to put them out of buisness.
So instead of best MMA fighters being in stable hands they would prefer it go to a japanese company that had the best fighters for a while,tried but failed to promote the sport as a global sport and had to sell out to it's closest rivals or another company that could easily go down the same route as all the other big US Orgs.

If it works and is getting bigger,why in the Hell would you want to damage it?

I have seen at least 2 dozen crocop fights and at least a dozen Couture fights and i have come to the conclusion that Crocop is 5 x the fighter Randy is.

you can try and wrangle the records whatever biased way you want, it doesnt matter.

e.g.

Randy has been finished more times than the number of oppoents he has finished. top 3 HW?

Randy is 12-7 at heavyweight, losses include Enson Inoue, Mikhail Ikkoultine, Vitor Belfort and Valentijn Overeem. Top 3 hw?

Randy had 4 title shots when coming off a loss, his HW titles were won off Mo smith, Kevin Randleman and Timmeh.
Mirkos title shots (lineal) both were coming off 7 fight win streaks, and were against Fedor and Nogueira.

Randy's big wins at HW are: Timmeh, Rizzo twice, Gonzaga.

Mirko's are: Igor, Herring, Fujita (twice), Barnett (3 times), Aleksander, Coleman.

Fedor
Nog
Crocop
Coleman
Igor
Barnett/Randy.

ChelseaQuinsfan wrote:
So how do you think a Prime Cro Cop would do against todays fighters?

HW top 10

Fedor-Fedor wins comfortably
Nog-Id take Nog but I could see Cro Cop winning still 60-40 Nog
Lesner-Lesner comfortably
Barnett-Cro Cop
Mir-50-50
JDS-50-50
Velasquez-50-50
Carwin-Most likely Carwin comfortably
Werdum-Fight wouldn't happen but if it did 50-50 grappler vs striker

is this serious? i mean really?


Fedor-Fedor wins (this fight happened of course, Fedor still calls it his hardest ever fight.)
Nog- I would take 2005 crocop over todays Nog 90% of the time.
Lesner-Crocop comfortably in PRIDE rules, see waterman fight.
Barnett-Cro Cop easily again.
Mir-
JDS-Shadow-Cop gave him a close fight, death-cop would destroy him, similar to aleks fight
Velasquez-Mirko would KO the chinny velasquez early, Cain couldn't take Mirko down in a ring.
Carwin- this would be a harder one for Mirko, still havent seen enough of Shane to judge.
Werdum- yes, striker vs grappler with about a 5% chance of getting it to the ground. Cop.

Thats a good video showing Dos Santos's skills. For his size he is so strong, quick and man does he have power, il never get tired of that uppercut on Werdum.

"ChelseaQuinsfan I think Crocop KO's Mir for sure, I dont rate Mir, I think he batteres Dos Santos if he was in his prime (although Dos Santos isnt in his prime yet) I think he beats Valesques because I think he hits harder than Kongo and would have put him away. Carwin is too big as is Lesnar and I see them winning but I think he beats Werdum who people seem to keep letting off the hook when they are beating him! But its hard to say... Its 2 different eras, Im sure if I asked you Tyson vs Marciano you would say Tyson but its 2 different eras, when you look at Prime vs Prime or if a good fighter was in his Prime today its all a matter of opinion"

Youd pick Cro Cop over Mir because I know you hate Mir with a passion

Look he is a dick, no doubt but he is a talented fighter. His striking is technichally brilliant, he showed against who was sick no doubt but it was still brilliant. Plus on the ground he is excellent. He has some bad losses on his record but so do most fighters. He has size advantage and a big one on the ground. Ok the UFC overate Kongo's striking game but he still hits very hard. I don't know if Cro Cop punches are actually harder but I also think your underating Velasquez's chin. Il give you his stance but his chin I think is better than you give it credit for. This fight would depend on wheter Velasquez could get to the ground. Dos Santos certainly didn't let Werdum off the hook. Werdum taught Cro Cop on the ground so im sure if Werdum got it the ground he would know what to do. Its very hard comparing the eras.


Randy's big wins at HW are: Timmeh, Rizzo twice, Gonzaga.

Mirko's are: Igor, Herring, Fujita (twice), Barnett (3 times), Aleksander, Coleman.

Herring, isn't big nor is Fujita. I love Aleks but I wouldn't put him as top. Randy is fighting Coleman next so we will see.

Fedor
Nog
Crocop
Coleman
Igor
Barnett/Randy

Randy is atleast 4th and Barnett shouldn't be in the top 10.

think only looking at Coutures losses to heavys doesnt make sence though Payne, loosing to smaller men is surely worse? If you dont credit Mirko for beating them because they are small then surely do count losses against Randy because smaller guys are worse fighters by that logic. I

Two things. Number one Randy is smaller than Cro Cop and he has been fighting HWs his all life. Secondly losing to smaller people isn't always worst. Its better to lose to Machida than Choi for example.


"Fedor-Fedor wins (this fight happened of course, Fedor still calls it his hardest ever fight.)
Nog- I would take 2005 crocop over todays Nog 90% of the time.
Lesner-Crocop comfortably in PRIDE rules, see waterman fight.
Barnett-Cro Cop easily again.
Mir-
JDS-Shadow-Cop gave him a close fight, death-cop would destroy him, similar to aleks fight
Velasquez-Mirko would KO the chinny velasquez early, Cain couldn't take Mirko down in a ring.
Carwin- this would be a harder one for Mirko, still havent seen enough of Shane to judge.
Werdum- yes, striker vs grappler with about a 5% chance of getting it to the ground. Cop."

Ive explained this all. Except Lesner would kill Cro Cop in anyfight period. Cro Cop Could not stop Lesner's takedowns at all, this would be embarassing. Pride rules or not, Lesner would carry him like a baby and slam him down then pound the fuck out of him. Your still underestimating Velasquez and JDS guys, there better than you give them credit for. Cro Cop would ofcoarse beat Barnett because he is a fucking disgrace.

I also really don't understand what this talk of Velazquez is chinny is about. He isn't, Kongo was able to outstrike Cro Cop so I think he can hit. Is Carwin chinny, is Gonzaga chinny. One was rocked by the other and the other was KOed. Is NOG chinny. He must be he was KOed by Mir who apparantley is worthy.

Kos, Swick, Fitch and Velasquez are not chinny, but all have been rocked in recent fights due to there terrible stance. If Velasquez was chinny he would have been gone by the third shot.

I think he could take Cro Cop down as well, he is (always was) bigger and stronger and Cro Cop hasn't faced many top wrestlers in there or approaching there prime. Coleman was past it. Barnett just can't fight without Roids. And Herring can't outwrestle anyone but Kongo.

I wasn't really trying to say that Randy should be NO3,I was just wondering why so many people think that Cro-cop is though.

Like I said before,if he is then it shows how young the sport is when a guy with Cro-cops record,the fact that he has never won anything apart from a weak GP and that he is a one dimensional fighter,alright one dimensional is not exactly right but his overall skills are nothing to shout about.

Cro-cop may have or may not have been better than Randy,it's to close to say.They both have fought some of the same fighters with mixed results,Barnett beat Randy,Randy beat Gonzaga etc etc.
Even if they fought today,it would settle nothing because if Randy lost,fans would put it down to him being 46 and past it,if Cro-cop lost his fans would be saying that if it was in Pride, under Pride rules,in a ring and not a cage or whatever other excuses we have heard in the last few years after he has lost.

Randy losing to smaller fighters would work against him,if it wasn't to the slightly bigger Chuck(the Vitor loss was an eye poke)Cro-cop lost to Randelman who is not in the same league as chuck and he drew with Wandi who were both smaller men.
Though Randys early losses were bad,they were at a time when Randy had zero sub defences,since then he has improved his game 10 fold,Has he been subbed since?even Big Nog couldn't sub him,so props to Randy for learning and becoming so much better.
Cro-cop came on the scene(like Tyson)as a young highly skilled,hard hitting fighter but his game never really changed,so he hasn't really evolved that much as an MMA fighter.

His bad recent form could be a mental thing or it could be down to the fact that nobodies scared of what he can do anymore and the sport has just evolved so fast that fighters are just better than him now,afterall it's not as if age is against him is it.


So without fighting each other or sharing a good amount of the same opponents,how do you judge who is or was the better fighter?

Ben your right,the so and so is>than> can be pushed to a stupid level.

How many top ranked fighters you have beat,dominant winning streaks,most rounded skill wise or best win ratio.Titles have got to mean something,afterall isn't that the aim for all fighters.
Or shall we forget all that and just give it to the guy with the best head kick,a 7 fight win streak,no titles and an average win Ratio.

So why would he be ranked higher than say Severn,who has a better win ratio than Cro-cop,has fought all the best fighters from the day had many a long win streak including one that was nearly 30 fights long and has won numerous titles.

Bas Rutten,who's record is probably only second to Fedors.He was alot more well rounded than Cro-cop,had a really dominant streak,again has a far better win ratio and won the king of Pancrase 3 times as well as the UFC belt.Nothing to do with MMA but he also won 14 out of his 15 kickboxing fights.

Ricco Rodriguez was unstoppable during 00 to 02 going on an 11 fight win streak,beating Pride fighters and clearing out the UFC HW division to win the belt,he has a similar win ratio even though he went crazy,blowing up to over 300lbs and messing up the rest of his career.He beat Randy and Arlovski plus a few names that were pushing a top 10 spot at the time.

Even Arlovski up untill last year had only lost to two UFC champs and at the time a highly rated Rizzo and at his best I think he would of been a great challeger for Cro-cop.
I think Cro-cop would take this one but I've always thought it would of been a great fight.

Why is it that useually in MMA/Boxing when you get into your early 30's you are normally coming into your best years but when you talk about Nog and Cro-cop it's completely opposite?

Don't tell me,Nog is worse now(which I don't for a second think he is),because if it was in the good old Pride days he would of beat Randy and Mir with one hand behind his back before he turned up for training and the same goes for Cro-cop.

Bullshit.

Randy gave him a good fight because Randy is a good fighter and the same goes for Mir but I'm sure we will see a fully fit Nog in a rematch.

Nog has not fought anybody outside the top 10 since he fought Zulu and has only lost to Barnett,which he avenged and Mir while he was sick.So if anything he has had his best consistant run of results against top fighters since 06.

In 05 Cro-cop beat who?

Barnett again,Coleman,because I know Fedor and the super Mark Hunt beat him,so Hunt could beat him in 05 but you would only give Nog a 10% chance,yeah right o.


How can you compare Waterman to Lesner?

They do both walk around at about 280lb and they both have a background in Pro-Wrestling but thats it.

Brock was a highly respected and successful ameture Wrestler.
Waterman was a high school art teacher who also coached the school wrestling team.

Brock is a year younger than Cro-cop.
Waterman is 11 years older.

Waterman has never been close to being a top 10 fighter.
Brock is the UFC champ.

Everyone wants to see Brock fight Fedor and alot think he has a good chance.
Who has ever wanted to see Waterman challenge Fedor.


Even the Brock from the first Mir fight would destroy Cro-cop now or at anytime,and once Cro-cop was mounted(in the first 10 secs)he would tap quicker than Art Jimmerson

This is Cro-Cops future


After this happens


I'm only joking as I would love it if Cro-cop could get his shit together and produce some highlight reel KO's again,it's just I don't think he is good enough anymore.


Oh and sorry about the novel length post,I'll try and keep them shorter in future.

Randy's big wins at HW are: Timmeh, Rizzo twice, Gonzaga.

Yes but they were all ranked in the top 10 when he fought them,Timmeh was the Champ,Rizzo was just coming off back to back wins over Severn and Barnett and Gonzaga was just coming off a devastating head kick KO over somebody,I forget who!


Mirko's are: Igor, Herring, Fujita (twice), Barnett (3 times), Aleksander, Coleman.

When Cro-cop fought Igor he had only won 5 of his last 9 fights so was not a top 10 fighter plus Igors biggest career win was against who?

Herrings biggest win in Pride was against?....never top 10

Fujita has never been a top fighter,unless beating Bob Sapp makes you great.

Barnett would be my NO3 if it wasn't for the consistant cheating,but no doubt this is the best fighter Cro-cop has beaten.

He beat a 23 year old Alexs in his fourth pro-fight,but Alexs still hasn't beat anybody of note and is not a top 10 HW.

A 40 year old Coleman who had only fought three times in four years when he fought Cro-cop.He basicly had just came out of retirement.Again not a top 10 fighter then.


Man these are his best wins and you still think he is the third best HW in MMA history.
One win over a top 10 ranked HW in his whole career

Fedor
Nog
Crocop
Coleman
Igor
Barnett/Randy.

No Bas,Severn,Ricco or Shamrock.

hows about this for logic:

none of Randy's titles count because he NEVER beat a fighter that was EVER a number 1 or 2 fighter.

the number one fighter tag went like this:

(dont want to go too far back) Coleman -> Igor -> Coleman -> Nogueira -> Fedor

the number 2 fighters have included, those above aswell as:

Mo Smith (ok he beat mo smith), Bas Rutten, Herring, Crocop, Arlovski, Mir, Barnett

Good calls on Severn and Bas, we havnt really discussed them. I really hope Mirko can string togeather a few more wins and try and cement his 3rd place among the heavys, clearly it has caused a lot of debate on here so people arent sold on him. If he looses to Rothwell its game over. What if he wins? Ideally id like to see him vs Couture. I think its a fight that would work for both men. Couture looked well past his best against Vera so who knows how it would go. Couture would be favorite based on Crocops last performance I suppose!

Anyone remember of much JDS weighed against Crocop. Around 240 i think and he dwarfed Crocop, Big Ben cuts to 265 and will completely dwarf Crocop more.

If upthe same Crocop shows up, then this could be a mauling. You dont want to be backing against Big Ben and letting him swing at you. Crocop is no Cain here, the only way he is winning this one is if he goes for KO.

I got Rothwell to win this one.

He was only 235ish I think, he isnt the heaviest guy in the devision, but he is tall and rangey, I think Big Ben makes up the extra 30lbs with Fat! JDS is probabally simialr height and reach to Big Ben.

Rothwell has never really beat anyone of note, he is a big step down for JDS for Crocop but if he turns up not wanting to get into an exchange and being timid your right, Big Ben wont let him off the hook.

I dont know who im going for, the Crocop fan in me thinks he will fight better this time but the realist in me says he will duck his head and try to avoid a fight and get beat down

He was somewhere from 235-240. He did make Cro Cop look very small and Rothwell is huge.

Having said that Cro Cop could still win, he just has to be the fighter that Manchesthair showed me in his video. Not scared of getting hit, continuously pushing forward and going for that HLK. Its possible and this fight could decide the rest of Cro Cop's legacy.

Don't forget, Rothwell is no JDS.

So Ben and Chesthair

Are you picking Rothwell against Cro Cop? I think he might want to go out there and prove it was a bad night, I don't think he will get beaten as badly as last time. I could see Cro Cop winning here, Rothwell has beaten no one noteworthy and was humilated against Velasquez.

Man its a tough call... Mirko has been a cowering wreck recently, to be honest he hasnt looked good in UFC full stop. An Al Turk type performance might well see him through a fight with Rothwell and to be honest I expect the same Mirko we have seen for the past few years will turn up, JDS was the worst ive seen him ever but then again maby it was because there was a lot more coming from JDS than there was from Eddie Sanchez and Al Turk... For me I can see him loosing, Ive no faith in Crocop anymore but I dont rate Rothwell... Still undecided!

What about yourself?

did you say Herring was never top 10?



http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/history-odds-rankings-2001-2004-a-975549/

May 16, 2001
HEAVYWEIGHT 205 lbs. and up (93 kg and up)
1. Coleman, Mark 155
2. Couture, Randy 131
3. Rizzo, Pedro 112
4. Vovchanchin, Igor 110
5. Fujita, Kazuyuki 85
6. Nogueira, Rodrigo "Minotauro" 84
7. Herring, Heath 52
8. Overeem, Valentijn 44
9. Kerr, Mark 38
10. Telligman, Tra 23


Rankings July 2001

Quote:
July 17, 2001
HEAVYWEIGHT 205 lbs. and up (93 kg and up)
1. Coleman, Mark 156
2. Couture, Randy 135
3. Vovchanchin, Igor 114
4. Rizzo, Pedro 111
5. Fujita, Kazuyuki 91
6. Nogueira, Rodrigo "Minotauro" 81
7. Herring, Heath 55
8. Kerr, Mark 40
9. Barnett, Josh 36
10. Telligman, Tra 30




Rankings End 2001

November 19, 2001
HEAVYWEIGHT over 205 lbs. and up (93.19 kg and up)
1. Rodrigo Nogueira 147
2. Randy Couture 138
3. Heath Herring 102
4. Mark Coleman 101
5. Josh Barnett 87
6. Pedro Rizzo 82
7. Igor Vovchanchyn 61
8. Kazuyuki Fujita 29
9. Mario Sperry 25
10. Ricco Rodriguez 12



Rankings mid 2002

Quote:
June 11, 2002
HEAVYWEIGHT over 205 lbs. and up (93.19 kg and up)
1. Rodrigo "Minotauro" Nogueira 159
2. Josh Barnett 142
3. Heath Herring 120
4. Randy Couture 114
5. Pedro Rizzo 85
6. Mark Coleman 79
7. Ricco Rodriguez 64
8. Igor Vovchanchyn 51
9. Mario Sperry 15
10.Semmy Schilt 8




Rankings Oct 2002

Quote:
October 15, 2002
HEAVYWEIGHT (205 - 265 lbs.)
1. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira (160)
2. Josh Barnett (140)
3. Ricco Rodriguez (120)
4. Heath Herring (112)
5. Randy Couture (94)
6. Mario Sperry (58)
7. Pedro Rizzo (54)
8. Fedor Emelianenko (27)
9. Igor Vovchanchyn (17)
10. Semmy Schilt (16)



Rankings 2nd half 2003

Quote:
Heavyweight:
1) Fedor Emelianenko (16-1-0)
2) Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira (21-2-1)
3) Josh Barnett (14-1-0)
4) Mirko Filipovic (9-1-2)
5) Tim Sylvia (16-0-0)
6) Andrei Arlovski (6-3-0)
7) Heath Herring (23-9-0)
8 ) Mark Coleman (13-5-0)
9) Wesley Correira (13-5-0)
10) Travis Wiuff (29-4-0)




Rankings May 2004

Quote:
May 2004

Heavyweight
1. Emelianeko Fedor - 99 Points (9 first place votes)
2. Minotauro Nogueira - 85 Points
3. Tim Sylvia - 82 Points
4. Josh Barnett - 74 Points (1 first place vote)
5. Mirko Cro Cop - 72 Points
6. Andrei Arlovksi - 69 Points
7. Heath Herring - 42 Points
8. Pedro Rizzo - 31 Points
9. Semmy Schilt - 25 Points
10.Frank Mir - 18 Points


Rankings End 2004

Quote:
November 2004
HEAVYWEIGHT DIVISION - (210-265 lbs.)
1. Emelianeko Fedor - 98 Points (8 first place votes)
2. Minotauro Nogueira - 92 Points (2 first place votes)
3. Mirko Cro Cop- 72 Points
4. Frank Mir- 67 Points
5. Josh Barnett - 54 Points
6. Andrei Arlovksi - 52 Points
7. Tim Sylvia - 47 Points
8. Sergei Kharitonov - 23 Points
9. Heath Herring - 17 Points
10. Justin Eilers - 15 Points

Others receiving votes - Pedro Rizzo (15) Travis Wiuff (14), Kevin Randleman (12)

thats as far as the list goes.


anyway i cant pick Rothwell over Crocop.

Thats not an official top 10 ranking,thats just some random Sherdog Pride fans opinion.

good try though

What about yourself?

I know what you mean when you say you can't pick Cro Cop anymore. I have the samething except with Gonzaga. I picked him to beat Randy, Werdum and Carwin and he failed all three times. The one time I picked against him (you can guess which fight that is) he won.

Anyway, Cro Cop is probably not a top tier HW anymore but Rothwell never was. He is above fighters like Sanchez and Al-Turk (most fighters are) but below Dos Santos, Gonzaga and Kongo. So, im thinking Cro Cop by UD because I don't think Rothwell is very good, gatekeeper at best. I hope if Cro Cop wins, then Dos Santos actually gets credit for beating a good fighter but im not holding my breath there.