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    Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

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    manschesthair_utd
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  manschesthair_utd on Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:34 am

    i wasnt finished!!

    .....or

    3. have an epic mullet and red speedo.
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    rudeboyben84
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:12 am

    Ok well try to set rules... who needs out then? Horn, Fulton? I suppose they are mainly in due to the number of fights?

    Is Igor out for not being champ? He has some really good wins and a 30 fight undefeated streak...

    Barnett has so many big wins, Radny, Nog etc..
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:18 am

    payneNglory1 wrote:That list at the moment just looks like somebodies list of favourite Pride fighters with a few UFC fighters thrown in.
    It's become so big all sorts of names are being thrown in who are great fighters but not HOFers.

    Most on that list should not be HOFers.

    Fedor,no doubt
    Royce,no explaination necessary
    Randy,two wieght 5 time UFC champ
    Bas,3 time King of pancrase,UFC Champ,retired on a 22 fight unbeaten streak.

    Ken and Frank have a good case as well as Severn,Funaki and Sakaraba and for the younger fighters Hendo,Hughes and Penn.
    most of the others I think I would need a convincing argument to be in a HOF.


    So these are the guys you arent sure of? OK the Things that make you a hall of Famer are Titles, Winning Streaks, Beating big names or other HOF'ers, or helping in the evolution of MMA

    . Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira: 32/5/1 (19 Sub, 3 KO) - The Only Pride and UFC Hw Champ... Beat Hendo, Coleman, Barnett, Crocop and Couture!! He goes in without a shaddow of doubt.

    . Wanderlei Silva: 32/10/1 (4 Sub, 22 KO) - The most dominant 205lbs fighter of all time, PRide champ who has fought between 195lbs and heavyweight. Wins over Rampage twice, Hendo, Ironhead, Realistically Crocop! Sakuraba 3 times! Guy Mezger and went 5 years undefeated!!

    . Chuck Liddell: 21/7/0 (1 sub, 14 KO) - The 2nd most dominant 205lbs figher ever, Beat more top names than anyone in MMA history not called Fedor.. infact he could well have beat more big names, Couture, Wandy, Vitor, Babalu, Horn, Overeem, Mezger, Randleman, Monson,

    . Mark Coleman: 16/9/0 (8 Sub, 4 KO) - UFC Hw Champ who revolutionarised GnP.

    . Josh Barnett: 24/5/0 (15 Sub, 5 KO) - UFc Hw Champ and open-weight King of Pancrase champ. Wins over Nog, Randy, Monson, Rizzo, Schilt, Aleks and Severn.

    . Mirko Filipovic: 25/7/2 (3 Sub, 19 KO) - Won Prides Openweight Gp, Like Liddell revolutionarised Sprawl and Brawl, Wins over Wanderlei, Barnett, Coleman, Randleman, Aleks, Vovchanchyn, Ironhead, Sakuraba

    . Takanori Gomi: 31/5/0 (6 Sub, 11 KO) - Shooto Ww champ and Pride Lw champ. Wins over Mach Sakurai, Crusher Kawajiri, Jens Pulver

    -------------------------------------------------------
    I can see a case for GOmi being left out, he is still young enough and hasnt the biggest list of names on his CV
    -------------------------------------------------------

    . Ikuhisa Minowa: 43/30/8 (28 Sub, 6 KO) - He should be in for his p4p status and willingness to fight anyone. Despite being a natural Ww he has fought all MMA's biggest guys, & foot + Choi and Giant Silva, Semmy Schilt, Zulu, Butterbean and Bob Sapp as well as some MMA legends, Crocop, Sakuraba, Wandy beating the likes of Frye, Baroni, Yvel. I think he needs to be in because he has fought all the Giants in MMA and a good lot of the top fighers and has a winning record!
    -------------------------------------------------------
    . Tito Ortiz: 15/6/1 (2 Sub, 8 KO) - UFC champ, wins over Shamrock, Wanderlei, Vitor, Griffin and Metzger... ID be happy enough to leave Tito off but he did really help popularise UFC.

    . Jeremy Horn: 83/19/5 (52 Sub, 19 KO) - Crazy amount of fights, beat Sonnen 3 times, Loiseau, Forrest Griffin, Chuck Liddell, Vernon White, Yvel, and drew with Severn... I know Horn isnt the best MMA figher ever but with over 100 fights under his belt and wins over some top guys I think he should be paid his dues and included on the list.... If most people feel otherwise thats ok Ill drop him because he lowers the bar for who gets in.

    . Travis Fulton: 191/45/11 (124 Sub, 61 KO) - Fulton is in simply because he has had far far more MMA fights than anyone else! HE has fought a lot of good fighers but really doesnt have the results to justify his place... he has wins over Cabbage, Heath Herring, Joe Riggs, Wes Sims etc.. His record doesnt stack up to anyone else on the HOF but I was giving him his dues to fighintg in so many MMA fights, If Horn if out he is out too!

    . Don Frye: 20/8/1 (11 Sub, 7 KO) - Revolutionarised training methods, Cross training etc.. an ex UFC Champ and holds wins over Abbott, Goodridge, Yvel, Abidi, Akebono and shammy... not maby good wins to be fair he is one I wasnt mad keen on having

    . Igor Vovchanchyn: 49/10/1 (15 Sub, 26 KO) - beat Sakuraba, Kerr, Goodridge, Enson Inoue, Yvel, Yuki Kondo... he went 32 fights undefeated when he beat Sakuraba.. the streak was ended with a loss to a seriously roided up Coleman. Again a figher who lacks the big names but I think the streak is nearly reason enough!
    -------------------------------------------------------

    Thoughts on these? any who need taken out? Fulton is probabally the one id remove, Gomi and below are ones that werent added straigh away
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    payneNglory1
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  payneNglory1 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:33 pm

    Nog should go in but I think it's a weak case for Cro-cop.

    Nog has 2 HW belts in the two biggest Orgs,Cro-cop has 1 GP win where he only fought one Heavywieght to win it.

    When Mirco was at his best,there was still two Heavywieghts in the same Org that were better,Nog was one of them.

    I don't think the sprawl and brawl is a good enough reason as like you say,him and Chuck can both claim that and I'd have Chuck in for the fact he has a who's who list of big name wins and He had a good run at being the LHW Champ.
    I'd say the Gracies introducing BJJ and Coleman's effective GNP are far bigger and more widely used contributions to MMA and the way MMA has evolved into what it is today.

    He was a very good fighter and was very exciting to watch,he had the Tyson effect on us,we all expected a spectacular 1st rd KO and most of the time he delivered,but he didn't when it counted and the end of his carear has just become a sad tale.

    Wandi is a definate,5 year undefeated and 3 of those as champ,plenty of big name wins,a GP win.

    for me then Nog,Chuck,Wandi and Coleman should be in.

    Barnett should go in,he has the titles,the big wins,a win over Nog who I think should be a HOFer,he has a unbeaten streak that was only interupted by 1 fighter,but should a proven multiple times drug cheat go in a HOF list?

    Igor has a really impressive undefeated run but the only name of note on that run was Sakuraba.He was never really in title picture apart from being a GP runner up and he has lost more fights to big named fighters than he has beat,so no to Igor.

    I wouldn't have Gomi,Horn,Fulton,Frye nor Tito on my list,Tito and Gomi still have a chance if they can finish thier carears in style.





    Minowa can stay because it's your list Ben Laughing
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    manschesthair_utd
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  manschesthair_utd on Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:49 pm

    payneNglory1 wrote:Nog should go in but I think it's a weak case for Cro-cop.

    Nog has 2 HW belts in the two biggest Orgs,Cro-cop has 1 GP win where he only fought one Heavywieght to win it.

    When Mirco was at his best,there was still two Heavywieghts in the same Org that were better,Nog was one of them.

    I don't think the sprawl and brawl is a good enough reason as like you say,him and Chuck can both claim that and I'd have Chuck in for the fact he has a who's who list of big name wins and He had a good run at being the LHW Champ.
    I'd say the Gracies introducing BJJ and Coleman's effective GNP are far bigger and more widely used contributions to MMA and the way MMA has evolved into what it is today.

    He was a very good fighter and was very exciting to watch,he had the Tyson effect on us,we all expected a spectacular 1st rd KO and most of the time he delivered,but he didn't when it counted and the end of his carear has just become a sad tale.

    Wandi is a definate,5 year undefeated and 3 of those as champ,plenty of big name wins,a GP win.

    for me then Nog,Chuck,Wandi and Coleman should be in.

    Barnett should go in,he has the titles,the big wins,a win over Nog who I think should be a HOFer,he has a unbeaten streak that was only interupted by 1 fighter,but should a proven multiple times drug cheat go in a HOF list?

    Igor has a really impressive undefeated run but the only name of note on that run was Sakuraba.He was never really in title picture apart from being a GP runner up and he has lost more fights to big named fighters than he has beat,so no to Igor.

    I wouldn't have Gomi,Horn,Fulton,Frye nor Tito on my list,Tito and Gomi still have a chance if they can finish thier carears in style.





    Minowa can stay because it's your list Ben Laughing

    crocop as the 3rd best heavyweight ever should go in, certainly ahead of Barnett whom he beat on 3 seperate occasions, as the developer of his uniquely effective type of takedown defence and as the most feared fighter ever. he was the first guy to be a highly successful k1 fighter and mixed martial artist. i think he goes in, he is a legendary figure in MMA and thats about all their is to it.


    need i say more?

    yes? 8 wins over other hall of famers good enough for you?



    I still think Crocop was a better fighter than Nog, they fought at a time before Crocops ground game had developed, and he was destroying Nog before Nog "pulled a Nog" that was a one sided beatdown for 10 minutes Twisted Evil
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:21 pm

    Yeah Mirko was putting a real beatdown on Nog before he pulled off a "Nog" as you say!! I think that its hard to call who diserves in the HOF. At the start I was adimant that I wouldnt lower the bar... I obviously have now and PayneNglorys got me thinking that we have put in a few fighters who arent up to scratch... I dont know its a tough one....

    Crocop was far far better than Coleman, I think it would be crazy not to include him...

    The ones I could take out are the obvious ones, Gomi, Horn, Fulton, Frye, Tito as you mentioned. They probabalyl arent up to the same standard as others on the List. Im in two minds over it right now. I suppose removing them would make a much more credible list... and Tito and Gomi have still plenty of oppertunity to ruin their careers!!

    If anyone reading this hasnt put their opinion forward on the 5 named guys let me know. Tito and Gomi are maby going out anyway because I dont think either has sealed HOF status just yet because with a loss either one could look out of place on the list. Fulton is on the verge of going out.... if anyone is its him.

    What about Minowa? Surely winning the superhulk would prove he diserves his place?
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  payneNglory1 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:31 pm

    8 HOFers confused


    Wandi,smaller,lighter fighter that also drew with him
    Sakuraba,Old school,smaller,lighter fighter
    Minowa,much smaller,lighter fighter
    Coleman,Old school
    Igor,shouldn't be a HOFer,great run but most of it was pre Pride and he ended up losing to a few average guys in Pride.
    Josh Barnett is without a doubt Cro-cops best wins but that is also the only top Heavywieght of his genaration he has beat all the rest of his best wins came against smaller fighters or the old men of the sport.

    Smaller fighters get credit for beating bigger fighters not the other way round.
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:41 pm

    Fuck it I think your right, having shite fighers like Fulton just open the arguement that if you have Fulton why not... Such and such a figher.

    Ive taken all the fighers you mentioned out. Crocop has done enough IMO. He is considered by a lot of people the 3rd best heavy ever. Considering he is a natural Lhw you cant be too harsh on him for beating smaller guys, He but a few beatings on Barnett who is 250lbs.

    Anyway Gomi and Tito are going to have to earn their place, If either notches up a few wins they get in, Minowa too. In the fairness im going to take him out too. If he wins the Superhulk that will count as a big win (tournaments should count like Belts)

    I know Igor and Frye are kind of legends but they never were the best about. They dont have many good wins on their record and their careers finished badly. When you look at their records they are hard to justify. We have got to keep it to the Very Very best and I think they are both just below the bar.

    Feel bad taking grizzled veterans like Horn and Fulton out, but the HOF really needs to be for the best fighers not guys who we like for fighting all the time or other reasons. Id like to keep it to MMA's elite so earning a spot is a bigger deal.

    PayneNglory im with you on this one... I just gave in to demands to put fighters who hald diserved it! Couldnt disagree more about Crocop, I think he is better than Couture.
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  payneNglory1 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:49 pm

    Crocop was far far better than Coleman, I think it would be crazy not to include him...
    ---------------------------



    Coleman is a first gen fighter who won all of his titles before Cro-cop even started in MMA,In his prime he introduced MMA to effective GNP and also won more than Cro-cop did in his prime,a Pride GP + UFC titles.
    Of coarse Cro-cop was better than Coleman when they were both fighting in Pride,Cro-cop was part of the new generation of better younger fighters,Coleman was a 40 year old Old school fighter.


    OK I kind of knew that I would lose on the Cro-cop one,but as you can gather I don't think the records back up the Hype.
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    Anfields5thKing
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:30 pm

    Gomi is the greatest LW of all time. He should be in, no question.

    Tito is the biggest draw in the history of the sport other than Lesnar.

    Miletich should be in as well.
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:56 am

    "Gomi is the greatest LW of all time" Seriously I dont agree there... Who are Gomi lost to Penn and Hellboy who are the best Lw's he has fought. He Lost to Marcus Aurelio who cant cut it in UFC any more... he lost to Diaz which is fair enough but he lost to Sergey Golyaev?? And Kitaoka who has just come off back to back losses....

    If Gomi Had huge wins on his CV id agree he diserves to be in but who did he beat? Mach Sakurai, Crusher Kawajiri and Jens Pulver (Which doesnt seem that big a deal now) a few half decent ones like Krazy Horse and Maby Nakakura or Bang Ludwig... But he has more bad losses than he has big wins...

    Id consider putting him back in because he is one of the best Lw's but best is a bit far off the mark. Penn is easily the number 1. Number 2 might even go to the likes of Aoki if he beats Kawajiri.

    Anyway well say if Gomi wins his next one he is in beucase he is still in danger of loosing his legacy IMO. He hasnt enough big wins that he can be considered a HOF'er already no matter how the rest of his career plays out. I think thats fair since im only putting Minowa in if he wins the Superhulk.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Tito Im not sure on.. being a big draw surely shouldnt get you in or we would have Kimbo in.

    Look at Titos record against other good fighers...

    . 0-2 With Chuck Liddell
    . 0-1 With Couture
    . 0-1 with Frank Shamrcok
    . 0-1 with Lyoto Machida
    . 1-1 with Guy Mezger

    . 3-0 with Shammy
    . 1-0 With Wandy
    . SD wins over Forrest and Belfort.

    I dont think he quite cuts it for the HOF, he isnt up to the standard of others on there and if he lost to forrest he would really look out of place. I think like Gomi he is still in the situation that if that was all he did with his career he wouldnt stack up to others on the HOF. Id like another win or 2 from Tito before he earns his place...
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I hate to say about Pat because im a huge fan, after his last win I was dieing to see him have another crack at the UFC but really can you put forward a case for him as a figher to join the current guys in the HOF? In terms of Big wins? Undefeated runs? Tite runs? I dont think so, Carlos Newton should probabally go in again opening the floodgates to worse fighers... Ie If you have Pat Miletitch in why not Rampage etc.. I really do want to stick to the best fighters ever in MMA. I think if you can put forward a decent case for him id like to have him but I think he doesnt stack up to the rest of the list as a fighter and unlike Tito and Gomi I think its too late in the game for him to prove himself.
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  Shanemc on Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:32 pm

    Kevin Randleman?
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    manschesthair_utd
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  manschesthair_utd on Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:39 pm

    no way randleman gets in, i am a big monster fan, but his record against other top guys is poor. against hall of famers he is 1-6!
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  hendos_right_hook on Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:41 pm

    manschesthair_utd wrote:no way randleman gets in, i am a big monster fan, but his record against other top guys is poor. against hall of famers he is 1-6!

    I was about to agree with Shanemc until I saw that stat! Fair do's I suppose
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:41 am

    I really think Tito should be in. For his impact on the sport alone. If it wasn't for Tito there would be no UFC..................actually, leave him out!
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  ChelseaQuinsfan on Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:10 pm

    No way is Gomi the greatest LW of all time, BJ and Aoki are alot better and will go down higher. By the end of there careers I can see a lot more other surpassing Gomi. One of the most overated fighters in history, no way should he go in.

    I really like Minowa but is he really HOF material? He lost to some real bad guys like Min So Kim, Zulzhinhio and a few others. Hows his record against fellow HOFers?

    I made a case for Tito earleir but we should wait maybe, I still think he should go in because of the reason Anfield mentioned but he can wait I suppose. I personally think Horn should go in, he has beaten some really good fighters.
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  ChelseaQuinsfan on Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:16 pm

    Why is Ken Shamrock in a HOF? If he didn't ruin his career I don't know what can because he completely fucked up his legacy.

    What about Rampage? He has beaten plenty of good fighters and has a pretty good record against HOFers. He beat Wandy, Hendo, Lidell twice and Minowa if he goes in. Lost to Wandy twice. 5-2 (Possibly 6) He was once a top 3 P4P fighter (after Fedor and Silva in 2007) and has held a belt before.
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  sunthunder on Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:19 pm

    Whilst I agree with him not being a hall of famer (on the basis that a single 4 year dominant run does not make you a legend), Gomi is still probably the most accomplished lightweight ever.

    Alot of early wins on his record don't carry particular notoriety now, but there's some very solid names there. First man to beat Takuya Kuwabara (who had previously fought prime Uno and Sakurai to a draw). Beat Ryan Bow and Chris Brennan when they were respected names, beat Rumina Sato when Sato was still a great fighter. Mishima was a top 10 lightweight when Gomi beat him. Beat undefeated Ralph Gracie into retirement. Beat Azeredo twice, and Jean Silva, both of whom are respectable wins for that time.

    His main wins are ofcourse Sakurai and Kawajiri. Kawajiri was considered the best lightweight in the world at the time of that fight, and Sakurai was at one time the best p4p fighter in the world who had completely rejuvenated himself and rocketed into the top 10 at Bushido 9.

    He lost to Aurelio, but avenged that and then destroyed Ishida who was the linear Champion having beaten Aurelio just after Aurelio beat Gomi.

    Even the Penn fight was not as dominating as people make it out to be. Gomi won the second round of that fight, and how many times do fighters really take a round over Penn at lightweight? The reason people were so hyped to see a rematch of that in 2005 was because Gomi had made massive improvements in his stand-up, and was solidifying himself as arguably the p4p hardest puncher in the sport.

    So in short, Gomi's wins:

    Kawajiri - number 1 at the time
    Sakurai - probably number 2 at the time
    Ishida - top 5 at least
    Aurelio - top 5 at least
    Mishima - top 10
    Pulver - top 10
    Azeredo x 2 - respectable
    Brennan - respectable
    Bow - respectable
    Nakakura - respectable
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  ChelseaQuinsfan on Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:50 pm

    How is he more accomplished than BJ Penn?

    He beat Din Thomas who was very good at the time, Koed Uno, Beat Serra comfortably, beat Gomi, Matt Hughes, Ludwig, Rodrigo Gracie, Renzo Graice, Pulver, Daddy, Sherk and Kenflo.

    Din Thomas- Top 10 at the time
    Uno-Top 10
    Serra-Respectable
    Gomi-Had only been beaten once and was top 10
    Hughes-Best WW in the world at the time
    Pulver-Not as good as before but still respectable
    Daddy-Top 10
    Sherk-Top 10
    Kenflo-Top 5
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  sunthunder on Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:22 pm

    Hughes isn't a lightweight accomplishment. I'd still rate Gomi's accomplishments higher on the basis that he basically became the undisputed lightweight champ because BJ was off fighting at random weight classes in K-1 and the UFC abandoned 155lbs. Pride Bushido was the only showcase for the worlds top lightweights, and Gomi dominated that division. As good as the UFC's lightweights division is, there will always be the question of needing to see BJ vs Aoki/Alvarez/Thomson. Back in 2005, it was a case of Pride vs Shooto, and Gomi answered those questions emphatically.

    Their accomplishments are close, that's obvious, and BJ will probably surpass Gomi soon, but given the similar number of quality opponents, I'll take Gomi's 31-5 lightweight record over BJ's 10-1 lightweight record.

    Gomi gets beaten with the "over-rated" stick waaay to much, to the point that I think he's probably under-rated.
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  manschesthair_utd on Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:43 pm

    i love Aoki and he is the number 1 LW in the world right now in my eyes (due to consistent beating top competition), but he would have a cat in hells chance of ever beating Gomi, i would love this fight to happen btw, Gomi is like Mach in some ways but a much more explosive striker and Mach blew Aoki away. Honestly i cannot see Aoki getting out of the 10 minute first round with a PRIME gomi (yes i know his training partner kitaoka submitted gomi, Aoki is not the level of grappler as kiatoka though)

    Gomi is hall of fame worthy, he was THE MAN at lw for a decent amount of time and, since joining PRIDE has been hands down the most exciting fighter in the world in my opinion.

    while im on the subject, i think mach has a case, i think being p4p number 1 at any point should get you in, and he was one of the first totally rounded fighters.
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  sunthunder on Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:03 pm

    Sakurai is arguably the fighter who has held relevancy the longest. You can make a case for him as being the best Japanese fighter of all time.

    And Kawajiri is gonna smash Aoki, just saying Very Happy
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:27 pm

    Aye no Idea why Gomi wasnt included, in his Prime he would flatten Aoki I think, Aokis chin is poor and thats not a good thing when in against Gomi.

    I think Anderson will go in if he wins his next fight.

    Tito could still end up shit. I dont think he did enough in his Prime. If he looses enough fights he could end up being a figher people only remember for his Mouth.

    Ramapge is a sure bet for a future HOF'er he has KO'd enough HOF'ers to earn his spot!

    I suppose Machi Sakurai diserves in as well... more so than Tito IMO.

    Ill hold Fire on the likes of Horn etc.. fighters that are getting in based on other things than being just good fighers. If anyone can make a strong case Ill add them. I cant keep Gomi out. Well put lads.
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    Ginginho
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  Ginginho on Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:26 pm

    I suggest changing the name to the Hall of Excellence or something like that....

    Fame doesn't mean greatness, just popularity - for example, look at the 2 most "famous" mixed martial artists at the moment - Brock Lesnar and Kimbo Slice. Would either of these guys go in at the moment?
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    ChelseaQuinsfan
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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

    Post  ChelseaQuinsfan on Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:45 pm

    Gomi should not be in, he is not a HOF quality. How many top top fighters has he fought? Ever P4P the best? Bj and him fought and Bj won there fight, convingly as well.

    BJ is just the best LW in the world. Look at his quality, fantastic striking skills and good wrestling. There isn't a LW out there who could beat him at his best.

    Aoki could beat Gomi, if he took it to the ground with his wrestling he would have a major advanatge. He could sub Gomi easily. BJ, Aurelio and Kitakoa are not better grapplers than Aoki by that much. Aoki is right now, the second best LW in the world IMO but I don't like him too much. Too one dimensional and I think Alvarez would KO him in a rematch.


    i think being p4p number 1 at any point should get you in

    Doesn't work, MMA is still a young sport. Plus does that mean we should put the winner of the first ever MMA match in the HOF? Mach could go in I suppose but again how many top fighters does he have there on his win record? Aoki twice, Pulver and Hansen. He lost to A Silva and Hughes so I don't know.

    If he gets included why can't Horn? He has beat Gilbert Yvel, Forrest Griffin, Dean Lister, David Loiseau, Travis Fulton, Chael Sonnen and ofcoarse Chuck Liddell. Liddell is a top, top win. He lost to Liddell, Silva and Nog as well but Mach lost against his top opponent Hughes. At least Horn has a win. Maybe we can wait for a while, at 34 he is still quite young and he has won 3 in a row now. Maybe we will see him back in the UFC or at Strikeforce. Possibly in Japan as well.

    Just an observation, Manchesthair you really like and know your Japanese fighters don't you?

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    Re: Hall of Fame *Under Construction*

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