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Chuck Liddell at 8?

Payne, have you been watching Cheech and Chong and getting in the spirit of the 4:20?

Hamill and Franklin are comical inclusions. Franklin's only wins at 205 in 8 years are Hamill and Ken Shamrock. Hamill i suppose has a win over Bones but seriously, are we giving him credit for getting his face caved in?

Chuck Liddell at 8?

Payne, have you been watching Cheech and Chong and getting in the spirit of the 4:20?

yep drugs do strange things to the mind,let this be a warning to all the kids reading,Drugs are bad

I honestly think franklin and hamill have done more in this division than either mo or mousasi have yet,so for me,they deserve to be ranked higher.

You have to rank Rich's catch weight fight against Wandi don't you,since they fought at a weight higher than Mw and the two fights before that Rich fought,he was ranked as a LHW,plus wandi was a LHW in the fight before and for 10 or so years before that,so I ranked it as a LHW fight.
I no it's after the fact but he just fought again at LHW and announced he is staying at 205.

the catch weight fights were just rich doing the UFC and Wandi and Belfort a solid,to keep them active whilst they made the transition down to MW.

i can clearly remember Babalu being 9th in our rankings, clear as day i remember it because he was 1 place behind Nog.

Rich now has 3 wins at 205. Shamrock, Hamill, Chuck the chin. None of whom were ranked at 205.

Babalu was number 9 in the rankings when he was Strikeforce champ and fighting for Affliction.

There you go, Babalu was 9 and Mousasi beat him. Therefore he replaced him in the top 10 at 9. Someone above him lost (I think Griffin) so Mousasi moved up. Mousasi cementd the place with solid wins after that. Mo beat him and took his place, so top 10 is just for him.

1)Shogun
2)Machida
3)Evans
4)Rampage
5)Anderson Silva (less than a year since he last fought there)
6)Griffen
7)Lil Nog
8)Jones
9)Mo
10)Franklin
11)Couture
12)Bader
13)Silva
14)Mousasi
15)Babalu

Bader belongs above Franklin, as does Thiago Silva. Franklin is just into the top 15. no higher IMO.

Didn't know you rated Jardine so highly.

Maybe Bader because a few of his other wins are quite good but not Silva, he hasn't beaten anyone remotely relevent outside Jardine.

Silva is ahead of Franklin in the 205 rankings.

Would actually be a good fight. Silva will destroy Boetsch and Franklin's arm should heal and have him ready around the same time as Silva.

I just can't agree with your lots Idea that if you are not ranked and you beat a guy in the top 10 you take his ranking.

and what makes me laugh is ,it's always these guys fighting weaker compition outside the UFC that get undeservingly ranked straight in the top 10.
I think Zaromskis was the one before mousasi wasn't it,never even shared the ring with a top 15 untill Diaz schooled him,yet goes straight into most peoples top 10.
Who did he beat to take there ranking place then?

Like I said,did it make serra No1 in the world when he beat GSP?

If Koscheck beats GSP,you aren't going to rate Kos at no1,as the best WW in the world are you?
and he's already starting in the top 10.

If you are not ranked already,you should start near the bottom of the pile and earn your way up.

it should be if you beat a guy in the top 10,you get your name on the top 15 and start near the bottom,then your next results start determining,if you rise up the rankings or drop out of them and obviously the guy that was beat will drop a place or 2,but behind fighters that had already established and earned their ranking.

Start at 15-14 if you beat say rank 10-15 or if some how an unranked guy got to fight a top 5 fighter and beat them,I would only then,start them off at 10.Then if they are that good and it wasn't just a freak result,they would start climbing and prove there ranking place instead of just being handed a stupidly high ranking on 1 result.

so again even if Babalu was 9,Mousasi should of only come in at about 14,the win over Soko mean't nothing really but still I'll give you the benefit of doubt and put him up a place to 13.
After Mo beats him,it would be wrong to rank Mo below him because he's out the top 10 and hadn't even been in the rankings long enough to have established a solid position,so I would Drop Mousasi 2 places to 15 and bring Mo in at 14.

normally Hamill wouldn't move up with his win over bones but because Mousasi lost,he has to drop a place and since it was to a guy who just beat him to get in the rankings,he has to go below MO.

ChelseaQuinsfan wrote:There you go, Babalu was 9 and Mousasi beat him. Therefore he replaced him in the top 10 at 9. Someone above him lost (I think Griffin) so Mousasi moved up. Mousasi cementd the place with solid wins after that. Mo beat him and took his place, so top 10 is just for him.

you've said that a few times,who are these solid wins he got after babalu to cement his place?

he beat an unranked soko and a terrible HW at HW in goodridge,that had been out of action for a year and was on a 5 fight losing streak.

where do you get your stats from pyne?
Mach was definitley top 15, he had won 8/9 since Gomi, nd coming off brutal win over top lw aoki

Yeah sorry I'd give you Mach was top 15,not sure how high you can say he was though,for me he was still outside the top 10.

but still even in Bens rankings as well as others,Zaromskis is at least 9th.
and thats after he lost to Diaz,so how does beating mach put you from losing to che mills 3 fights before,to above 9th in the rankings?

I get my stats or opinions from watching shit loads of MMA,I google fighters to check out fighters records and backgrounds and find videos on them if I'm not sure about them,I even look at fighters vids that I do know well,just to refresh my memory on them,to find out what standard of fighter they have been fighting and beating and actually how good they looked doing it,plus I look at differants sites rankings.

I put the work in checking everything MMA because I love the sport so much,as sad as it sounds to some,every single day I get the kids off to school and check whats going on,on various differant sites and occasionaly stumble across differant things while searching the net.though I only really enjoy posting and chatting on here.

The reason why i have a problem with Mousasi or Mo's top 10 rankings is,Mousasi looked good against kang and manhoeff but didn't look good against Jacare,He looked great against Babalu but again looked poor against soko and was absolutely shocking against MO,so for me in his LHW career he has looked great in 1 and terrible in 2,where as Mo has 1 good win against Mousasi and looked terrible getting it,I don't see how any of that would justify either being top 10.

Rankings on differant sites are all differant apart from usually the top 5 or 6 because it's just about opinions but when I look at some rankings,IMO,there is usually some fighters included more on hype more than proving they are deserving that rank.

I honestly think if Mousasi didn't have his Fedor connections,there is no way he would of been hyped up like he has and Mo's Hype is so far all based on him being considered one of the best wrestlers,and the fact that the rest of his game seems average at best and he looked awful getting the win over Mousasi doesn't seem to matter and zaromski's was all because people had this notion that he was the second coming of Cro-cop or something,forget who he fought or lost to before and the fact he got battered by Diaz,he got 3 head kick victories back to back,so he must be top 10.


As I say this is an opinion thing,so there is no right or wrong untill they make an officail ranking system with guidelines for ranking and obviously judging from the responses,my opinion about them is in the minority.

If it was my ranking system,then you would only be ranked on what you have done in that division,so you would need to either rack up a string of good wins to get on the list or beat a top ranked guy to get on the bottom of the list.The only others that I would say make a good case for getting a start on the list,is if you were a top 5 in the division below and have stepped up and win a match in that division.

the only way an unranked fighter with 1 win would get you in my top 10 is if you beat the currant No1,which can't happen anyway because No1 won't ever fight or should fight an unranked opponent.

then once you have made the list,then your next results should determine where you end up in the list,you obviously move up or down according to the strength of the win and how others around you in the rankings perform.

MMA rankings are bullshit in general.

honestly i think ours is the best out there.

but thats only because i have some say in it

1. Shogun Rua
2. Lyoto Machida
3. Rashad Evans
4. Quinton Jackson
5. Antônio Rogério Nogueira
6. Forrest Griffin
7. Randy Couture
8. Chuck Liddel
9. Thiago Silva
10. Ryan Bader
11. jon Jones
12. Rich Franklin
13. Matt Hamill
14. King Mo
15. mousasi

Ok you have made some good points but all those points apply to some of these fighters. Liddell isn'thte top 15 anymore much less top 10. Not even before the Franklin fight. Silva is not a top 10 LHW, his record is worse than Mousasi. He looked poor against Drwazl, was destroyed by Machida and comfortably beaten by Evans. His only win is over Jardine and Jardine is NOT a better win than Mousasi.

Silva's last 5 performances

Loss to Evans
Win over Jardine
Loss to Machida
Win over Mendes
Win over Alexander

Mo's last 5 performances

Win over Mousasi
Win over Whitehead (15 wins in 16 fights)
Win ovr Kerr
Win over Kawamura
Win over Naito

To be fair Silva has done nothing to suggest he is a top 10 fighter, he hasn't beaten a top 10 fighter yet, so why is he top 10 then? Over all Mo's record is a lot more impressive than Silva's. If you apply the same logic to Mo with Silva, then he can't be top 10 either.

For some reason you think a win in the UFC is more impressive than anywhere else. Not always, the UFC do a lot of experemnting with fighters and ALOT of them fail. Mendes is one that comes to mind.

The same applies for Hammil and Bader. I really like Bader and I think he is a future champion but break down his record and compare it to Mo & and it certainly is no more impressive than King Mo's. There have been fights where Bader has just looked like a one-dimensional wrestler but you seem to lay off him.


Personally I never really thought Zaromskis was top 10. Mach was past his best, High is an average fighter and the other guy is a can but you can't compare that to Mo or Mousasi. You can compare it to Silva though. Zaromskis Koed a top 15 Mach, Silva KOed a top 15 Jardine.

I already admitted my chuck mistake

For some reason you think a win in the UFC is more impressive than anywhere else

I explained before,you have to be on form with an impressive winning record to get into the UFC,there are zero fighters with losing records,no journeymen and no fighters that were good ten years ago but shit now,fighting in the UFC,everyone who fights have earned there way there,unlike most other Orgs like Sengaku and M1 who seem to let anyone fight for them.
Plus we know that in the UFC,there are no mismatches put on,you only fight fighters that are around your level at the time and as you improve your opponents improve,this is why the UFC is the most competitive Org out there,plus they have the roster to do this unlike other Orgs.

So yeah,getting a win in the UFC is far more impressive than getting one elsewhere.

Sengaku and M1 are the equivalent of the 1st division in football ,while the UFC is the Prem (Strikeforce Championship).







Silva's last 5 performances

Loss to Evans - former champ and currant No3 LHW,plus you need to be up there to get a fight in the UFC against somebody ranked that high.
Win over Jardine - I don't think top 15 but he's there abouts
Loss to Machida - former champ and currant No2 LHW,again how did he get this fight.
Win over Mendes - was 14-2 going into this with a few good wins under his belt.Just didn't cut the very top level,like Whitehead you could say.
Win over Alexander - Was absolutely hot when they fought,on a 8 fight win streak stopping 7 of them,I'm pretty sure houston was around the top 15 at the time.

plus Drawl 14-1 going into this,who's only just decided to drop to MW and James Irwin,no top 15 but an established top end fighter(not top end of the UFC,top end of MMA in general)

Overall 14-2 as a LHW

Mo's last 5 performances

Win over Mousasi - Done him to death,2-1 LHW,looked shocking in 2 of them
Win over Whitehead (15 wins in 16 fights)the same one that Jardine spanked,the same one that failed miserably on TUF and can't cut it at the level above.
Win ovr Kerr - come on your joking adding this one to help his case surely,he's only won about 2 fights in the last 10 years
Win over Kawamura -??????????
Win over Naito -??????????

Mo 3-0 as a LHW,Mousasi and 2 ??????????

In Mo's entire 2 year career,he hasn't fought nowhere near the level that Silva has been fighting at for the last 3 years,plus Silva wracked up 9 wins before that.

Silva was absolutely shocking against Machida! Completely out of his depth, Machida battered the shit out of him in all aspects. Ok it is Machida but it shows he is nowhere near that level. Some times you can move up with losses if the performance is there, Shogun vs Machida 1 is a good example. Even though he lost, Shogun still looked better than he had in years and thats why he got credit. No way does Silva fit that criteria against either Machida or Evans. Against Evans he was ok but apart from one shot that he failed to capitilise on he was dominated. I never claimed they were bad losses but he didn't put in performances that suggest he is a top 10 fighter.

Mendes is absolute crap. After losing to Silva he was KOed in his next 3 fights including ERIC SHAEFER! He beat a bunch of cans to get a decent record.

Alexander got popular because he KOed Jardine, who seems to be a recurring theme here. After beating Silva he went on to lose his next 4 fights (including KImbo) with a win over Sherman Prendegast, one of the worst fighters in the world, sandwiched in. He is a below average fighter, a win over him is nothing.

We are left with Jardine, one of the most inconsistant performers in MMA. He wasn't top 15, his record before was win-loss-win-loss and now he is in a 3 fight loss streak. He is past his best and his best wasn't great to begin with.

If you want to use the logic that mendes was 14-2 or whatever before, Kawamura was 9-3 when he faced Mo and Naito was 15-4. Same level if not better than Mendes, the only reason Mendes was known was because he was a UFC whipping boy. Whitehead has improved since Jardine beat him in a close descision but ye he isn't great.

Kerr is shit I know, I just was showing the record. A win over Kerr though was much better than the howler of a performer Silva gave against Machida.

Drwazl isn't even a big MW and was unranked then. Irvin is an average fighter. I'd consider Travis Wiuff as good or a better win than Irvin. When Wiuff fought Mo he was unbeaten in 9 fights and had wins over Fulton, Tuscherer, Iron Head and Rodriguez.

What it comes down to is there best wins. For Silva its Jardine, for Mo its Mousasi. One is clearly a far better fighter than the other. Mousasi was still ranked higher than Jardine when he lost to Mo, so even if Mo isn't in the top 10 he is higher than Silva.

To be fair to Payne, he will defend anything and everything UFC related to the bitter end. He's of the opinion that the UFC is the be-all and end-all and always has been. At least he sticks to his guns, have to respect that.

thanks,I think

but I,ve never denied that Pride had a deeper HW division,nor that Fedor or Nog were the best HW's or that Hendo was the best WW(MW)when in Pride.

I even think there LHW (MW)division was just a strong as the UFC's for a short while.(they just never had the best while Frank,then Tito and Chuck were No1's in the UFC)

but overall,your dead right.

Pride had the best LHW division by a distance, in fact it was the division they were most dominant in. Wandi and Shogun were 1 and 2 in the world. Rampage and Arona were top 5. Saka and the Janitor were in Pride Other than Chuck, UFC had nobody. Pride had Little Nog, Overeem, Belfort, Look at the people Liddell fought in his undefeated streak, Ortiz twice, Couture twice, Babalu, Vernon White and Jeremy Horn. No question that Pride had by FAR the better and deeper division. Hendo and Ninja both competed in the LHW division of Pride during that time as well.

I can't agree,(like you thought I would)

Wandi and shogun were never No1 and 2 at the same time,Wandi in my eyes has never been No1,while frank,Tito and Chuck were about.
Anyway we did that the other day and got nowhere.

I didn't know that the janitor had fought in Pride,who did he fight?
Belfort started in the UFC and has fought more times in the UFC than Pride.He went to Pride for a year or so,got a good run of results,came back to the UFC and got beat by Chuck,Randy and Tito.
Overeem was a failure at LHW in Pride and Ninja is pants.

the UFC's LHW's were stronger for about 6 of the 8 years Pride was about,while they had
Frank
Tito
Chuck
Randy
Vitor
Babalu
Lindland
plus guys like Horn,the Janitor,Lutter,Prangley etc making up there rosta.

For the last 2 years,I'll give you that the Pride LHW division was stronger,when some of the younger fighters like Shogun started to mature.

Shogun
Wandi
Hendo
Arona
Rampage
not sakuraba though,his career was on the slide then

the UFC's top 5 then was
Chuck
Randy
Tito
Vitor- though he did go back to Pride in 06 after Chuck,Randy and Tito beat him.
Babalu

These guys were still good but were all starting to get on a bit.

This is also about the time when the TUF started and the UFC were on a recruiting mission signing new talent like Forrest to take on Shogun

And before you go nuts over that coment,it was in jest,I know Shogun was off on that night because of injuries and is better than Forrest.



but still a win is a win

Pride had the strongest LHW division during the time when Chuck and Couture were at the top. Chuck was an up and comer before he fought Randleman and Couture was a HW. Tito was champion of an incredibly weak division, look at the people he fought as champions. Weak competition. And Frank retired 5 years before Chuck became important.

Without question, Pride had the best division. Wandi was number 1 for a long time. Shogun became number 2 after winning the GP. You know the GP Chuck entered?? And got knocked out in. Pride had 4 of the top 5. and by the best roster.

Tito was champion of an incredibly weak division, look at the people he fought as champions. Weak competition

This was what started to make me laugh since Wandi is on that list but the next bit was just to much.

Shogun became number 2 after winning the GP. You know the GP Chuck entered??

Shogun hadn't even joined Pride when Rampage beat him,he won his GP 2 years later

Your arguing for Wandi,yet don't even know Wandi won it,a true Pride fan

Pride had the strongest LHW division during the time when Chuck and Couture were at the top. Chuck was an up and comer before he fought Randleman and Couture was a HW

Whats Chuck beating Randelman in 2001 got to do with it,we are talking about 03 and onwards? Tito was champ in 01.Pre 03 is not even a debate,the UFC was miles ahead.

and how can you say in the same sentence that,when Randy was at the top of the LHW division,he was a HW?

He was at the top after beating Tito,Chuck and Vitor at LHW.

Look your either having a bad day,been thrown on your head one to many times in training or you haven't got a clue what your on about after that complete mess up but I'll give you the benefit of doubt and put it down to a bad day or a bump on the head.



Just because Wandi won one tournament,it never made him No1,since the real no1 at the time,Tito wasn't even in the thing,the No2 Chuck was,but it wasn't wandi who beat him was it.

Couture was a LHW in 03 all the way up till 06 and before that he was a HW,the HW champ,so dropping down after being the champ,he would be ranked reasonably high and after beating Tito,Chuck and Vitor back to back,then he was at the top of the LHW division.

Wandi has never fought great fighters back to back,Wandi only has four big name wins in his whole career,Rampage,Sakuraba,Arona and Hendo,5 if you want to add Metzger and two of them were smaller than him because they were MW's.

where as Chuck had two great winning runs fighting good fighters back to back and all big names who were highly thought of,and not one MW either.

1st run was
Monson,Randelman,Mezger,bustamante,Suloev,Vitor and Babalu

the 2nd
Tito,White,Randy,Horn,Randy,Babalu and Tito.
Thats 11.

White was the only bad fighter Chuck ever fought in the top flight,where as Wandi's list of bad fighters he fought is just to long to list.

I wonder why the Pride Champ only fought 4 different good fighters in his 7 years being champ,if his division was so stacked,yet Chuck was only champ in the UFC for 2 years but fought 5 different big names and before he was champ he fought 7 more

If he added all the bums Wandi was fighting inbetween his hard fights,this wouldn't even be worth comparing,not that there much of a comparison now.

I added Frank because he was No1 when Pride started.
Tito was No1 from 2000 up untill he lost his belt in 03,you yourself already said in an earlier post that Wandi wasn't No1 in 01 when he lost to Tito,the same year he beat Sakuraba,hendo and Metzger because how did you say it,"Wandi was still working his way up the rankings then"

Chuck was also working his way up the rankings like Wandi then in 01,it's who took over in 03 after Tito lost his belt to Randy is the only chance wandi had at making a claim for the No1 spot.

So who had the better 02 wins to claim that spot?

Chuck--------Wandi

Suloev-------Tamura
Vitor--------Iwasaki
Babalu-------Kanehara
Randy loss---Sakuraba
Overeem

(it stops here because this is when Tito lost his belt)

Chuck without a shadow of a doubt and Randy beat Chuck while he was No2 and then beat the No1 Tito,so how does Wandi get the No1 spot with a win over the lower ranked Rampage?

The only argument that you have that Wandi was better than Chuck,or claim for him being No1,is the fact that Chuck lost one fight to Rampage,even though after that,Chuck was still more successful and deserving of a No1 ranking than Wandi.

Chuck----------Wandi

Tito-----------Rampage
White----------Hunt lost
Randy----------Yoshida
Horn-----------Nakamura
Randy----------Arona lost
Babalu---------Arona
Tito-----------Fujita
Rampage lost---Cro-cop lost
---------------Hendo lost
---------------Chuck lost,just to put the Icing on the cake

so for a quick breakdown,Chuck has fought and beat twice as many good LHW fighters than Wandi has,Chuck has beat 2 guys that beat Wandi,where as Wandi has beat 1 that beat Chuck,Chuck worst fighter he has fought is White,but he has also fought 12 different good LHW fighters over a 6 year period,losing to only two of them,yet Wandi has fought more cans than he has fought good fighters during the same period,actually only fighting 6 good fighters (2 MW's)losing to three of them and when they did fight each other,wandi at 30 and chuck at 37,Chuck wins.

So remind me again,when was wandi better than chuck and ranked No1 for a long time?

No1 LHW in Pride,no doubt,thats why he ran off over there in the 1st place,after Tito showed him where he stood,but he never was or never has been the No1 LHW in MMA.

^

Now thats overkill....

...But you agree Mo is higher ranked than Silva