GOAT in every weight-class?

Im sure this has been done to death but its an intresting topic, who do you think is the greatest in every weight class? A while back we had an intresting debate on who the best Im thinking of the top 5 in every division, who are they, and how close are they to moving up or down?

HW 205-265 pounds:
1. Fedor Emelianenko-By far the best, easy choice.

2. Big Nog-Plenty of titles, including the only person to hold the Pride and UFC HW belts and plenty of big name wins.

3. Mirko Crocop-A career of highlight reel KOs, Never got a title but he had one awesome night in 2006 where he beat Wandy and Barnett in one night.

4. Randy Couture-Three time HW champion, 2 time LHW champion, comeback after comeback. He was always too old yet always defied the odds and an easy pick for. Won fights he never should have, easy pick for 4.

5. Pedro Rizzo/Mark Coleman-Both former HW champs but Rizzo has by far the bigger wins on his record. That includes actually defeating Coleman. Rizzo has more embarrasing losses but I think he just edges in. Im fine with Coleman though.

LHW 205 pounds:
1. Wanderlei Silva
*. Chuck Liddell

I can't decide which one is first, both were recking machines in there day. Liddel suffered some embarassing losses but Wandy was heavily suspected of roiding in Japan. Rampage destroyed Liddell and Wandy destroyed Rampage BUT Belfort destroyed Wandy and Liddel comfortably beat Belfort. There's argument for both, I know most will favour Wandy here but Liddell did beat him. Im leaving them tied for now.

3. Bas Rutten (Amazing record towards the end)

4. Frank Shamrock (first well rounded fighter)

5. Not sure here for the 5th, Shogun and Machida come to mind but I don't feel either have done enough to be considered top 5 ever. There fight wasn't decisive for me, niether guy had a clean edge to be considered a clear winner so im calling that a tie and putting err Griffin? Randy? Hendo? I need help here.


MW 185 pounds:
1. Kazushi Sakuraba (The Gracie Hunter, fanatstic record and right now easily the best)

2. Anderson Silva (Could go first with a few more high profile wins)

3. Dan Henderson (All time legend, just behind Silva because of the loss)

4. Rich Franklin- Just because

5. Nate Maurdquat- ^^^^

Okay I was bias on the last two but Franklin is a former UFC MW champion and Nate is a 3 time king of pancrease champ, 7 times won and defended and a host of big names on the CV. This is easily the weakest division so im open to suggestions.

WW 170 pounds:
1. GSP- People might be looking at Hughes in this position but I think GSP has defeated much tougher opponents and will go above him eventually anyway.

2. Matt Hughes-Very easy choice

3. Hayato "Mach" Sakurai-Not my favourite fighter but for a natural LW he has done very well with a lot of big wins.

4. Pat Miletich- 5 time defending WW champion.

5. Carlos Newton?

Trigg could run him close but these guys will be replaced soon, guys like Shields, Fitch, Alves, Kos by the end of there careers will be here.


LW 155/160 pounds:
1. BJ Penn-easily the best here, just like Fedor at HW.

2. Gomi- In his day he was a beast. Lot of brutal KOs and subs. Has a few poor losses and those two losses not too long ago have stopped him from going higher.

3. Pulver- How can you not love this guy? Tiny LW, never the best athlete but one of those who always defied the odds. A lot of good wins like Daddy, Uno, Hallman and Swanson. Plus he was the first man to ever beat BJ Penn, incredible no one ever saw that coming. The only other guys to beat BJ were Hughes, GSP 2x and Machida. Pulver is the only man smaller than Penn to beat him. A legend in my eyes, sad to see what happened later in his career but still a legend.

4. Aoki- One of those guys who has no right to be as good as he is. Every time he throws a punch you expect his twig wrists to snap yet somehow he has beaten top competition over and over. Still needs another couple of wins to go over Pulver.

5. Sean Sherk- Only ever beaten by GSP, Hughes, Penn and Edgar. But his incredible training regime and a win over a host of top opponents just puts him here for now, I was tempted to take him out because of the roids but it was once and ill give him the benefit of the doubt because it did really sound like he was innocent. Will be replaced in the future but right now he is in.

FW 145 pounds:

Okay so I know its a baby division and this will be hard but I might as well since no one else has tried

1. Jens Pulver
2. Kid
3. MTB
4. Faber
5. Aldo

On the bubble: Takeshi Inoue, Bibiano Fernandes, Dokonjonosuke Mishima,

Any of those could go up.

That was pretty hard admittidley. I still haven't sorted them all out, Im ofcoarse open to any changed and I will do so if the majority of people agree. Thoughts?

Good post but 1 question.... What the Fuck is Matt Serra going on Greatest anything list???!!!

Because he beat my favourite fighter ever so I have to give him some credit

Ha Ha!! I'm with Ben, The Terror has no business on a GOAT list

The only thing he deserves any recognition for is inadvertantly turning Playboy GSP into all-business wrecking machine GSP version 2.

Royce has to be on the 170lbs list for his early legacy, men like Kos will never be spoken about in the same breath as him.

have you seen Coleman/Rizzo btw? Shogun/Machida of its day in terms of robberies.

there was almost identical thread as this on 606 so ill post here what i put there.

HW:
1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. Minotauro Nogueira
3. Mirko Crocop
4. Mark Coleman
5. Randy Couture

LHW:
1. Wanderlei Silva
2. Chuck Liddell
3. Mauricio Shogun
4. Bas Rutten
5. Ken Shamrock

MW:
1. Kazushi Sakuraba
2. Frank Shamrock
3. Anderson Silva
4. Dan Henderson
5. Royce Gracie

WW:
1. Matt Hughes
2. Georges st Pierre
3. Hayato "Mach" Sakurai
4. Pat Miletich
5. BARONI!!!!!!

LW:
1. BJ Penn
2. Takanori Gomi
3. Shinya Aoki
4. Jens Pulver
5. Sean Sherk/Kawajiri toss-up

Yeah like I said on 606 Id agree with your List Chesty, I usually put Gracie as a Welter but I suppose id doesnt matter, Funaki over Shammy? I just hate Ken Shamrock! Maby even Rampage over him!

ChelseaQuinsfan, Upsets happen its MMA! GSP's head wanst in the fight, All of the greats loose. The 2nd fight was a true reflection of their respective abilities... a rib busting beatdown by GSP!!

Ive taken Serra out boys

I of all people would never compare Serra's ability as a fighter to GSP!

have you seen Coleman/Rizzo btw? Shogun/Machida of its day in terms of robberies.

So Rizzo really won but the commentater was really bias, his partner was his lackey and everyone thought Coleman won? Just Kidding, Il check it out though, I never really have seen it but since Machida and Shogun was actually a very close fight, best use the Hammil vs Bisping fight.

Not sure about Coleman over Couture, could Coleman beat Sylvia (back then) and Gonzaga so dominantley? I don't think so, Randy has to go 4th.


Intresting you have F Shamrock at MW when he was pretty shit there, although it was towards the end. Still I remember his success as a 205 pound fighter. Gracie as MW is also confusing but il look into that.

I love the Baroni pick, I hate the K Shamrock pick because just like Ben I hate the worlds most dangerous man. Never I have I seen a man with such unjustified confidence in himself and the bullshit he pulled in TUF 3 as a coach was horrible. LHW is a hard one to pick, I definitley think Shogun WILL go in as an all time top 5 LHW, maybe even the best ever but right now? His best wins aren't that much better than Griffins. I think he could go in but im not sure.

Thanks for the thoughts guys

"Intresting you have F Shamrock at MW when he was pretty shit there"

Yeah but Frank was never actually 205, he weighed in wearing a full tracksuit with shit in his pockets in his UFC heydey. Tito was probably 30lbs heavier than him when they fought. Frank's from the old school that never thought about cutting weight, he should definitely go in.

noooo!!!

Ken is a great fighter! and such an important figure in mma history. i obviously dont beleive in ruining legacies unless you do something REALLY bad!

beat some great fighters, submitted Funaki twice, submitted Bas Rutten twice, submitted Matt Hume, submitted Dan Severn, submitted Mo Smith, submitted Kimo and knocked him out,

First King of Pancrase; 16-3 overall in Pancrase including winning a 16 man tournament, and the last of those losses where he lost the crown was a work.

First linear UFC champion, successfully defended the belt twice.

an intelligent guy too, its hard not to like the early ken!

Ah fair enough you make a very good case mate! Hard to argue when you put it like that!! Wonder how Shammy ended up so shit. He really went downhill very quickly. Ken gets far more credit than he diserves I think Frank is a far better fighers. Bitty Ken Fucked that match up, ID love to have seen Frank School him!

Dude have you actually done a lineage for the ufc championship? Would love to see it if you have

Yes, the early Ken was moderately likeable until he started putting on superfight snoozefests on the ground. I'm still angry about Severn vs Shamrock....

I just can't ignore the fact that he needed roids to beat a guy who eats fried chicken in the warm-up area. I hope he comes back though after the suspension, becasue I'd love to see Frank have some fun with him in the octagon. Just imagine how many ways he would humiliate him......

Its been announced Coaches for TUF 12 in 2011 Ken Shamrock vs Tito Ortiz!! Wouldnt be supprised!

HW:
1,Fedor
2,Big Nog
3,Randy
4,Coleman
5,Severn

LHW:
1,Chuck
2,Wandi
3,Bas Rutten
4,Ken Shamrock
5,Machida

MW:
1,Anderson Silva
2,Frank Shamrock
3,Sakuraba
4,Royce Gracie
5,Dan Henderson

WW:
1,GSP
2,Matt Hughes
3,Jake Shields
4,Sakurai
5,John Fitch
Man there are some boring fighters in the WW division,but you can't argue with their records.

LW:
1,BJ
2,Gomi
3,Aoki
4,Sherk
5,Pulver

its all on wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFC_Champions

it starts out with the UFC superfight championship Ken-Dan-Mark....
when Coleman wins it is renamed the UFC HW championship because they introduce a < 200 lbs divison.

this has inspired me to make a thread........

HW:
1.Fedor
2.Big nog
3.Cro Cop
4.Couture
5.Coleman
LHW:
1.Wand
2.Chuck
3.Rampage
4.Shogun
5.Bas Rutten
MW;
1.Sakuraba
2.A Silva
3.Hendo
4.Franklin
5.Marquardt/Gracie
WW:
1.GSP
2.Hughes
3.Miletch
4.Newton
5.Sakurai/Trigg
LW;
1.BJ
2.Gomi
3.Sherk
4.Aoki
5.Pulver cause i wasnt sure who else

Yeah but Frank was never actually 205, he weighed in wearing a full tracksuit with shit in his pockets in his UFC heydey. Tito was probably 30lbs heavier than him when they fought. Frank's from the old school that never thought about cutting weight, he should definitely go in.

Still all his success came in at 205, im not saying he doesn't deserve to go in, i just think 205 is where he should go in. Not only was he more successful there, beating much bigger fighters but I have a few options at MW and very few at LHW


HW:
1,Fedor
2,Big Nog
3,Randy
4,Coleman
5,Severn


Come on, Cro Cop should at least be top 5. Im not a huge Cro Cop fan but credit where credit is due, Severn lost to James Thompson. Seriously you can't be a top 5 HW and lose to that guy!


As for Kenny, lets see he should have retired after the first Tito fight but instead went on to lose his next 5 fights, 4 of those losses we against very good opponents. One of those losses was against Robert Berry! Before you say it and I know someone will bring it up, yes Ive heard that fight was fixed as well. All the more reason to hate SHAMrock giving his legacy up for a bit of cash. Then he used roids to try and defeat ROSS CLIFTON (RIP) seriously why? At least when Barnett roided he was trying to beat Randy Couture and Fedor (not accepting it in anyway). If thats not fucking up your legacy up I don't know what is but im sure Shamrock will find a way to do it somehow. Maybe make a Wheelchair MMA promotion or something like that. Im wondering Chesty what does a legend of MMA have to do for you to disregard them as a legend of the sport? Comit murder in the ring or something?

Cro-cop doesn't make my list because at no time was he ever thought as in the top two of his division.

Fedor and Nog were the two best Pride Heavies at the time.
Randy,Coleman and Severn were all ranked the Best in the UFC at one time.

An Old Severn lost to Thompson but a Severn in his prime was one of the best ever.

So for only being the 3rd best in Pride in his day and not being able to compare him to the UFC fighters at the time,he doesn't make my list.

the Sherdog.com rankings disagree:

September 2006
HW

Fedor Emelianenko (Unanimous #1, 38 Votes)
Mirko Filipovic
Josh Barnett
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
Tim Sylvia
Andrei Arlovski
Aleksander Emelianenko
Mark Hunt
Fabricio Werdum
Jeff Monson

Jan 2007
HW

Fedor Emelianenko
Mirko Filipovic
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
Josh Barnett
Tim Sylvia
Andrei Arlovski
Fabricio Werdum
Mark Hunt
Brandon Vera
Aleksandr Emelianenko


any if you are ranked 3, and the 2 guys above you are the greatest 2 heavyweights of all time, why does that exclude you from being the 3rd best ever?

This is like flogging a dead horse.

any if you are ranked 3, and the 2 guys above you are the greatest 2 heavyweights of all time, why does that exclude you from being the 3rd best ever?

Because I think the Best in the UFC at the time were better than him and I think all this talk about him being past it now is an exageration and I think it has more to do with he just was not as good as alot of you think.
And as I've said many a times,I've watched all of his fights in Pride and used to also think he was the dogs bollox,but since I've taken of my rose tinted glasses and looked at his records and who he has fought with a less biased attitude,I no longer think he is or was as good as I once thought,don't get me wrong he still makes my top 10 heavy of all time but he's in the bottom half.

The Heavywieghts Cro-cop beat were either past their primes or just not high level fighters,except for Barnett.

Fedor and Nog are still going strong and competeing at the top,proving that they were not a flash in the pan like Cro-cop.

Cro-cop is considered a small heavywieght yet I think he has fought more fighters who are smaller than him than bigger .

Nog and Fedor have beat a good range of Heavies who at the time were in their primes,Cro-cop has beat Barnett.

Who's to say Cro-cop could of beat Randy,Rodriguez,Arlovski or even Timmeh,who were all Champions,at least Nog and Fedor can.

It was only severn months before Gonzaga battered him,followed by Kongo out striking him that everyone was saying how much of a great he was for winning the GP(even though he only beat 1 heavy to win it)

Most Pride fans just dismiss the past UFC Champs,even after Ricco came over a battered Nog and got robbed,the smaller Randelman beat Cro-cop(who got battered by Randy and Chuck before moving to Pride).

And now he is getting his arse handed to him in the UFC every fight,it's excuse after excuse.

His record was padded with weak Japanese fighters,he was put in against weak strikers so the audience could see some spectacular KO's from him.He was kept away from Schilt or any other guys in Pride at the time with serious striking.They only gave him Mark Hunt because he had already beat him in K1 and was not expected to beat him(shit that backfired didn't it).

A little quiz,tell me what heavywieght with good standup has Cro-cop beat or even fought?

I can only think of one,and he has still never made it anywhere near the top 10.

He's not past it,he's just been found out.

Personally feel Frank Mir should be on the verge of top 5 HW?? thoughts?

Mir has been around for ages it seems, but he is still relatively young and is probably just now entering his peak as a fighter, if he wins the title a few more times and beats some more top guys, i think he will enter the top 5 of all time HW.

payneNglory1 wrote:This is like flogging a dead horse.

any if you are ranked 3, and the 2 guys above you are the greatest 2 heavyweights of all time, why does that exclude you from being the 3rd best ever?

Because I think the Best in the UFC at the time were better than him and I think all this talk about him being past it now is an exageration and I think it has more to do with he just was not as good as alot of you think.
And as I've said many a times,I've watched all of his fights in Pride and used to also think he was the dogs bollox,but since I've taken of my rose tinted glasses and looked at his records and who he has fought with a less biased attitude,I no longer think he is or was as good as I once thought,don't get me wrong he still makes my top 10 heavy of all time but he's in the bottom half.

The Heavywieghts Cro-cop beat were either past their primes or just not high level fighters,except for Barnett.

Fedor and Nog are still going strong and competeing at the top,proving that they were not a flash in the pan like Cro-cop.

Cro-cop is considered a small heavywieght yet I think he has fought more fighters who are smaller than him than bigger .

Nog and Fedor have beat a good range of Heavies who at the time were in their primes,Cro-cop has beat Barnett.

Who's to say Cro-cop could of beat Randy,Rodriguez,Arlovski or even Timmeh,who were all Champions,at least Nog and Fedor can.

It was only severn months before Gonzaga battered him,followed by Kongo out striking him that everyone was saying how much of a great he was for winning the GP(even though he only beat 1 heavy to win it)

Most Pride fans just dismiss the past UFC Champs,even after Ricco came over a battered Nog and got robbed,the smaller Randelman beat Cro-cop(who got battered by Randy and Chuck before moving to Pride).

And now he is getting his arse handed to him in the UFC every fight,it's excuse after excuse.

His record was padded with weak Japanese fighters,he was put in against weak strikers so the audience could see some spectacular KO's from him.He was kept away from Schilt or any other guys in Pride at the time with serious striking.They only gave him Mark Hunt because he had already beat him in K1 and was not expected to beat him(shit that backfired didn't it).

A little quiz,tell me what heavywieght with good standup has Cro-cop beat or even fought?

I can only think of one,and he has still never made it anywhere near the top 10.

He's not past it,he's just been found out.

Igor Vovchanchyn, one of the best HW strikers of all time and former number 1 in the world.

former top 5 mma fighter, K1 world GP champion Mark Hunt.

K1 standouts Choi and Overeem,
Kongo, Dos Santos, Fedor...is this even a serious question?
he isnt Chuck Liddell, he could beat good strikers!
he had 23 k1 fights for goodness sake.

hate to be picky but Herring was top 5 at the time of fight, Aleks has been top ten, though not at the time of the fight.
also, this one might be hard to believe, but at the time of the first fight, FUJITA WAS A TOP 5 FIGHTER.

also let us not forget the perfect hat-trick over JB, KO, decision and submission

Sorry it should of said what Top Heavywieght strikers has he beat or fought.

Igor had was a tiny 5'9 old school fighter who had lost to Tra Telligman,Mario Sperry,Herring and Rampage coming into that fight.He was well past his best coming into that fight.

Mark Hunt had not fought a K1 fight in nearly 2 years before that fight and he has lost nearly a third of all the K1 fights he was in,plus his MMA record is won 5 lost 6,never mind the fact it was only Hunts fourth ever MMA fight.(and he still beat Cro-cop)
I'm not taking anything away from Hunts 01 GP win but to be fair he was given a wild card in Qualifiying,he lost but advanced because Sefo who beat him could not carry on,but when he was there he had a great night and won it.
He was classed as a gatekeeper at best in K1.

Overeem destroyed Cro-cop and Choi had lost 5 of his last 8 K1 fights going into that fight plus Choi's MMA record is won 2 lost 3.

Herring is a fighter that all top 10 fighters should beat and he is far from a top striker,he's only stopped 7 fighters out of his 28 wins.He's been beat twice as many times as the people he's Ko'd.

A green 23 year old Alexs for me is one of the best strikers he has beat but to be fair who has Alexs beat,nobody to deserve being anywhere near the top 10-15,and Fujita,come off it,just because he has an extra thick skull and could take damage and the Japanese crowd loved him does not nor never make him a great fighter,plus he is a Wrestler not a striker.(one good punch on Fedor does not all of a sudden make you a good striker)
I know what makes them both great,they both beat James Thompson,is that it?

Losing to Fedor is no disgrace.

So the best Strikers he has fought in MMA are Kongo,JDS,Overeem and Fedor (only 1 in Pride)and how did he fair against them in a striking match?

They all plus Hunt and Gonzaga all beat him at what he is supposed to be the best at,a bit of a kick in the teeth for the supposed most dangerous stiker in the world I'd say.

The best Striker he ever beat was Alexs,a guy who wasn't even ranked anywhere at the time.

I've never discredited him for beating Josh,he had his number and they are great wins.

Put Cro-cop in with small guys or wrestlers he looked great,put him in with good big Strikers and it's a differant story.

You gave me 9 names,four of which beat him,Hunt did it in only his 4th MMA fight,one that was battering him but got a NC,one little guy well past his prime,a freakshow fighter that had lost 5 of his last 8 K1 fights and is 2-3 in MMA,a gatekeeper,a young unranked guy who had only 3 previous fights and a wrestler who is famous for landing one good punch on Fedor.

I know I'm in the minority when it comes to Cro-cop but I don't see what great wins and accolades he has,that show he is the 3rd best heavywieght of all time.

If you think JDS, Kongo and Gonzaga are better strikers than Hunt (got his ass kicked by Mirko in K1), Choi and 60-2 in kickboxing Igor (Mirko was the only guy to KO Igor in 125 combined mma and kickboxing fights) then i will not flog this dead horse any further.

..but factor this in: do you think Randy or Severn would have a cats chance in hell against a prime crocop in PRIDE, IMO they could fight 100 times and Mirko would win 95 or more.