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    Time to give it up?

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    GSPfan11
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    Time to give it up?

    Post  GSPfan11 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:09 pm

    I know people on here will not like this but its time for Rua to hang them up.

    Yes he might still be a top 10 fighter but is that really enough? For me we are talking about a guy that should be #1 and seeing him slip to 5-6 since coming to the UFC on Saturday just doesn't seem right.

    There's no disgrace in losing to the fighters he's lost to but for me without the injuries he'd have beaten them all. It's such a shame because for me he's the best LHW we've seen when fully fit but I honestly don't think he's even fighting at 50%

    A few years ago I thought he was going to be the guy that beats Anderson and it just doesn't sit right with me that someone who should be going down as a potential GOAT is struggling so much at the modest age of 31. Yes there's still some big winnable fights against guys like lil Nog Vitor etc but what's the point? The guy should be the 1 everyone else is chasing, not the guy that's having a rough time with Brandon Vera, getting his ass handed to him by a 42 year old (until he punches himself out) or being target practise for Jones or a 1st big win for Gustafson.

    If he continues to fight which he will, I'll still be a massive fan but I just find it hard watching these legends hang about to long almost tarnashing there legacies!

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    payneNglory1
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    Re: Time to give it up?

    Post  payneNglory1 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:06 am

    It's a shame,because the Pride shogun looked like a stone cold killer,but in the UFC he's done sweet FA really.
    One of the biggest let downs behind cro - flop.

    Against Machida and Chuck the KO was the only time he's really impressed.

    I mean he loses to Forrest,who was supposed to be the guy who was supposed to stand up and take the punishment,letting Shogun show off his skills,he gassed and fucked that up,then he gasses and struggles with old man Coleman,not a good start to his UFC career.
    Then things look like there back on track with the Chuck KO,Though we come to find out,Chuck's chin was already done at that point.
    Though against machida,in the first and second fight,he did look a lot better,making me think,sweet he's back,but then Jones just completely derailed him,which a beating like that could probably finish the career and confidence of any great fighter.
    Yes I know he revenged his forrest loss,(a guy that was never of supposed to have been in Shoguns league in the first place)but again just like Chuck,there was so many questions at the time,about where forrest was as a top fighter then.
    Then as you say,Dan was having his way with him until he gassed out,Vera gave him a hell of a tough night,Gustaffson didn't drop a round,infact if I'm right,one judge scored it 30-26 I believe,then Sonnen chokes him out in a round.I have lost more bets on him than any other fighter I think,he's just one of them that makes you think,that stone cold killer will return at any time,but i think after 7 years,it's about time I gave up on that I think.

    Injuries ,surgeries all have to play a part in shoguns case,but i think we have to come to the realization that the Pride fighters who we thought were the dogs bollox,just weren't.

    I've done my fair share of Pride and noodle arm bashing over the years(infact it got boring being right all the time Razz tongue )and I'm trying not to go down that route,but I still say the sport was already passing them by at that time,and the spectacle of pride made fans think it was on a level it just wasn't,but most fans just refused to except that,no matter how many times their heros continued to struggle afterwards.

    Different and stricter rules and regulations and fighting under different conditions are all excuses that have some merit,but would that really take the majority of the fighters,who only months earlier where considered by far the greatest fighters on the planet to then all of a sudden,start struggling and then finishing over the next couple of years,having average to mediocre records just by moving stateside?

    I'm not so sure.

    Wandi 4-5 in the UFC since Pride
    Shogun 5-6
    Cro-cop 4-6
    Rampage 7-5
    Kang 1-2
    Gomi 3-4
    Gono 1-2 (0-1 Bellator)
    Big Nog 5-4
    Lil Nog 4-2
    Then you have Fedor 3-3 stateside

    also you have the asian guys that were supposed to be the best in the world,you know,your Aoki's,Omigawa,Hioki(though I still have some hope here) Kid etc,how have they all got on when fighting high level western competition?



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    manschesthair_utd
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    Re: Time to give it up?

    Post  manschesthair_utd on Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:23 pm

    GSPfan11 wrote:I know people on here will not like this but its time for Rua to hang them up.

    Yes he might still be a top 10 fighter but is that really enough? For me we are talking about a guy that should be #1 and seeing him slip to 5-6 since coming to the UFC on Saturday just doesn't seem right.

    There's no disgrace in losing to the fighters he's lost to but for me without the injuries he'd have beaten them all. It's such a shame because for me he's the best LHW we've seen when fully fit but I honestly don't think he's even fighting at 50%

    A few years ago I thought he was going to be the guy that beats Anderson and it just doesn't sit right with me that someone who should be going down as a potential GOAT is struggling so much at the modest age of 31. Yes there's still some big winnable fights against guys like lil Nog Vitor etc but what's the point? The guy should be the 1 everyone else is chasing, not the guy that's having a rough time with Brandon Vera, getting his ass handed to him by a 42 year old (until he punches himself out) or being target practise for Jones or a 1st big win for Gustafson.

    If he continues to fight which he will, I'll still be a massive fan but I just find it hard watching these legends hang about to long almost tarnashing there legacies!

    100% agree with this, since Forrest 2 I have been hoping he would retire, he is not the same fighter and the reason has all stemmed from his knee injuries.
    He really looks like a guy fighting in treacle these days, no spring in his step at all. Secondly he hasn't been able to train as hard do to injuries.

    Payne - I know you think PRIDE was some kind of sham and a hype machine, but there is no way the Shogun that fought in PRIDE would lose to old man Henderson ~ so in this case I think its more about injuries, if you watch how he fights early in his career compared to recently, its not the same at all.
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    Mryzyz
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    Re: Time to give it up?

    Post  Mryzyz on Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:02 pm

    His career as an elite fighter ended as soon as he blew his knee in the first round of the second Machida fight (except for the bit where he KOed Machida and won the title seconds later)

    His knees are so fucked at this point that I don't think he can train properly.

    I honestly believe he would have been, if not the GOAT, at least top 5 all time if he had stayed healthy. He was also one of the most entertaining fighters ever as well. Such a shame.

    It would be best for his legacy to retire. If he still enjoys it enough or would just like more money, then I wouldn't begrudge him continuing as a lower top 10 gatekeeper.
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    Cowboys From Hell
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    Re: Time to give it up?

    Post  Cowboys From Hell on Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:30 pm

    He's done his knee injuries and hanging around yes men has finished his career.

    I thought Chael could beat him but I didn't expect him to dominate Shogun and submit him in the 1st. Sad
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    payneNglory1
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    Re: Time to give it up?

    Post  payneNglory1 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:00 pm

    manschesthair_utd wrote:
    GSPfan11 wrote:I know people on here will not like this but its time for Rua to hang them up.

    Yes he might still be a top 10 fighter but is that really enough? For me we are talking about a guy that should be #1 and seeing him slip to 5-6 since coming to the UFC on Saturday just doesn't seem right.

    There's no disgrace in losing to the fighters he's lost to but for me without the injuries he'd have beaten them all. It's such a shame because for me he's the best LHW we've seen when fully fit but I honestly don't think he's even fighting at 50%

    A few years ago I thought he was going to be the guy that beats Anderson and it just doesn't sit right with me that someone who should be going down as a potential GOAT is struggling so much at the modest age of 31. Yes there's still some big winnable fights against guys like lil Nog Vitor etc but what's the point? The guy should be the 1 everyone else is chasing, not the guy that's having a rough time with Brandon Vera, getting his ass handed to him by a 42 year old (until he punches himself out) or being target practise for Jones or a 1st big win for Gustafson.

    If he continues to fight which he will, I'll still be a massive fan but I just find it hard watching these legends hang about to long almost tarnashing there legacies!

    100% agree with this, since Forrest 2 I have been hoping he would retire, he is not the same fighter and the reason has all stemmed from his knee injuries.
    He really looks like a guy fighting in treacle these days, no spring in his step at all. Secondly he hasn't been able to train as hard do to injuries.

    Payne - I know you think PRIDE was some kind of sham and a hype machine, but there is no way the Shogun that fought in PRIDE would lose to old man Henderson ~ so in this case I think its more about injuries, if you watch how he fights early in his career compared to recently, its not the same at all.
    I don't think Pride was completely like that,there was great fighters and great fights,and I've said it from the beginning,I loved watching them,shit,I've got most Pride events in my Video/DVD collection,but with the corruption,fixes and hype behind it,it made it hard to separate the truth from the bulshit and that's made me question and doubt which fighters and fights were hyped and made to look like beasts and which ones were doing it on talent alone.

    With Shogun,I said,Injuries and surgeries were his down fall,he fit into the talent alone category for me.He just became a let down for me in the UFC,because every fight I kept expecting the return of him,but it never really happen,barring a flash that kept building my hopes back up.

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    payneNglory1
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    Re: Time to give it up?

    Post  payneNglory1 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:31 pm

    doe's anybody think that Shogun could make the drop to MW and would it be a good thing for him?

    There have been questions about his work ethic in training,could the extra training and stricter diet,to make MW,actually help him?




    GSPfan11
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    Re: Time to give it up?

    Post  GSPfan11 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:36 pm

    payneNglory1 wrote:doe's anybody think that Shogun could make the drop to MW and would it be a good thing for him?

    There have been questions about his work ethic in training,could the extra training and stricter diet,to make MW,actually help him?



    I honestly don't see him being a threat at MW but its something he might have to look at. If he is to continue an have MW in mind maybe a fight with someone like Franklin at 195 could be an option? But as you say if he's already cutting corners in training I can't see him wanting to do it.
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    rudeboyben84
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    Re: Time to give it up?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:53 pm

    Not moving with the times will call time on a fighters career. Like Rampage and Fedor he doesnt stay or get into the shape we see most MMA fighters in. He isnt at a top camp, he doesnt train with top partners on a regular basis and likely calls the shots when he is in training.

    Shogun hasnt moved with the times but in my eyes its better to retire if you dont want to. Im talking go to Blackhouse or somewhere, drop to 185 and have go at that belt after Anderson is done. It wont happen but its what it would take for him to stay in the game.

    Yes. Time to give it up, though I wouldnt begrudge him 1 retirement fight in Brazil against an old Rival, Nog or Hendo were both FOTY werent they?

    GSPfan11
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    Re: Time to give it up?

    Post  GSPfan11 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:58 pm

    rudeboyben84 wrote:Not moving with the times will call time on a fighters career. Like Rampage and Fedor he doesnt stay or get into the shape we see most MMA fighters in. He isnt at a top camp, he doesnt train with top partners on a regular basis and likely calls the shots when he is in training.

    Shogun hasnt moved with the times but in my eyes its better to retire if you dont want to. Im talking go to Blackhouse or somewhere, drop to 185 and have go at that belt after Anderson is done. It wont happen but its what it would take for him to stay in the game.

    Yes. Time to give it up, though I wouldnt begrudge him 1 retirement fight in Brazil against an old Rival, Nog or Hendo were both FOTY werent they?
    I'm shocked I honestly thought people were going to tell me I'm wrong, and Ben I know how you love to see the old school guys giving it 1 last run at the top.
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    rudeboyben84
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    Re: Time to give it up?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:29 pm

    Haha I know mate, even hope for Hopkins in boxing despite the fact he isnt an entertainer or a nice guy! Just admire people who can stay on top into the age fighters were retired a decage ago.

    For Shogun he doesnt have the passion, the young guys are full of fire and to keep pace with them the old guys need to be doing what they are doing. One thing ive noticed is that a fighters style has a huge part on how long they can keep doing what they are doing and im not talking taking damage just.


    In Boxing Hopkins learned to hit and hold. Be conservative with punches, hit on the breaks. Bend the rules if he needs to, learn your craft but play the points game. If he could grapple for 2mins and punch for 1 Hopkins will.

    In MMA you have Couture, the master of wall and stall. It stalls the fight like Clintching in Boxing. Couture would be very inactive on the cage, stalling the fight so he only had to really push the pace for part of a round. Severns style too, lie on top of them, throw enough GnP not to get stood up. Wrestlers will have a longer shelf life than Strikers because your strength leaves you much later in life than your speed and reflexes.

    Shogun in his day was more like RJJ in boxing, he would leap in beat you to the punch, Jones handspeed, slipping punches etc, Shoguns flying kicks and dives onto a grounded oponent. Flashy young guys cant rely on getting old and still having the same blinding flare to overcome guys. As Marsellis wallace said in Pulpfiction "Motherfuckers who thought their ass would age like wine. If you mean it turns to vinegar, it does. If you mean it gets better with age, it don't." Flashy guys have a short shelf life and IMO are better to leave us with a good memory of them.

    Its partly Shogun hasnt the style to age will in this sport and partly because he just isnt training at top level these days.

    If he had a retirement fight who would you like it against?

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    Re: Time to give it up?

    Post  GSPfan11 on Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:11 pm

    I know what you mean regarding styles determining how long a fighter can keep going. Erik Morales being a great example in boxing terms.

    Going off topic slightly but I wish Khan would take a leaf out of Hopkins book sometimes, he has fighters looking like they shouldn't be in the ring with him some fights with his hand speed and combinations, but after 2-3 rds they realise that after every punch/combination he's gona stand there waiting to be countered. If he'd just get in- hold - back off then do it again not many could touch him. As it is 1 or 2 more knock outs an his career is over.

    As for a retirement fight for Shogun, I suppose in an ideal world Rampage would still have a fight left on his contract and they could both stand infront of each other until 1 falls down. Come to think of it I'd quite like to see that rematch if they're both gona keep fighting. As for current UFC fighters there isn't really a fight I'd like to see him have (in his current state). My worry is he hangs around and gets beat by someone like Ryan Bader.
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    sunthunder
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    Re: Time to give it up?

    Post  sunthunder on Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:45 pm

    I'll always say a former great fighter should retire rather than continue as a middling figure in his division. Shogun doesn't really have a chance at regaining any of his former glory and given his recent style which depends heavily on taking significant punishment, I'd much rather he just retire. It's not just the injuries either (though they are a significant part in his downfall), his skill set is lacking against the current elite.
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    Re: Time to give it up?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:59 pm

    If Shogun wanted to return he needs to get back on the horse. He didnt take damage or a KO so he needs to be back training trying to come in better than he has recently and a change in camps is the only way forward.

    Add Hendo to the Time to give up list if he loses to Belfort which honestly im expecting now the speed difference just seems so much after watcing their last fights.

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    Re: Time to give it up?

    Post  GSPfan11 on Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:43 pm

    So James Te Huna it is for shogun. Is it safe to officially call Shogun the new gate keeper at LHW?


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