Why Shogun?

After seeing Machida deservedly get the decision over Shogun I was left wondering why Shogun got the title shot in the first place.

He had three previous fights in the UFC, losing to a very limited Forest Griffin, who was shown up for what he is by Anderson Silva. His only two wins being against Old Man Coleman, and a clearly finished Chuck Liddell, who was never that good to start with.

Surely there has never been a fighter who deserved his shot less.

Brock got his shot after 2 fights,a win and a loss.
Big Nog got his shot after 1 win in the UFC(interim belt)
Hendo 1st two fights were for the UFC MW belt and theUFC LHW belt.(the pride belt was not up for grabs,so it’s not as if he had earned his shot at either UFC belt)
Anderson Silva had 1 fight before his shot.
Rampage had 1 fight before his shot.
If Shogun had beat Forrest,his next fight would have been for the title and not an easy warm up fight that the Coleman fight was supposed to be.

So basicly apart from Brock,if you fought in Pride the UFC have tried their best to fast track them to a title shot,they tried with Wandi and Cro-cop also but we all know how their UFC careers have panned out so far.

I'm not completely sure but I would say BJ,GSP,Hughes,Tito,Chuck,Franklin,Arlovski and I definitely know Machida and probably many more like Tannner ect all had at least 3 fights in the UFC before they were handed a shot at the Title.

I’m not complaining about the fact they all get fast tracked because as a fan,these were the fights I wanted to see and the UFC would have been stupid risking them losing against up and coming fighters first,which would of obviously jeopardize some of these fights ever happening.

It's amazing how much respect and how many opportunities have been handed out to these former Pride fighters compared to others by the UFC though,yet when you talk to a Pride fan,none of this gets recognized and it’s usually just more of the UFC is Hell and Dana is the devil,yet M1 and Fedor are great,Strikeforce is the future,Hendo will be better off fighting in a weaker talent pool than mixing it up with the best MW’s and even though most of japanese MMA is run by the Yakuza,bribes,one sided mismatches and freakshow fights are all for the betterment of MMA

How can you forget twinkle toes and his title shot on his debut???

redmeanie77 wrote:How can you forget twinkle toes and his title shot on his debut???

Didn't you know,he had a pride fight under his belt first,so of coarse he was deserving of a title shot in the UFC on his debut


I'm starting to think Twinkle toes was a pioneer for getting these ex Pride fighters title shots in the UFC and Hendo and the rest of them should show him their respect

payneNglory1 wrote:Brock got his shot after 2 fights,a win and a loss.
Big Nog got his shot after 1 win in the UFC(interim belt)
Hendo 1st two fights were for the UFC MW belt and theUFC LHW belt.(the pride belt was not up for grabs,so it’s not as if he had earned his shot at either UFC belt)
Anderson Silva had 1 fight before his shot.
Rampage had 1 fight before his shot.
If Shogun had beat Forrest,his next fight would have been for the title and not an easy warm up fight that the Coleman fight was supposed to be.

So basicly apart from Brock,if you fought in Pride the UFC have tried their best to fast track them to a title shot,they tried with Wandi and Cro-cop also but we all know how their UFC careers have panned out so far.

I'm not completely sure but I would say BJ,GSP,Hughes,Tito,Chuck,Franklin,Arlovski and I definitely know Machida and probably many more like Tannner ect all had at least 3 fights in the UFC before they were handed a shot at the Title.

I’m not complaining about the fact they all get fast tracked because as a fan,these were the fights I wanted to see and the UFC would have been stupid risking them losing against up and coming fighters first,which would of obviously jeopardize some of these fights ever happening.

It's amazing how much respect and how many opportunities have been handed out to these former Pride fighters compared to others by the UFC though,yet when you talk to a Pride fan,none of this gets recognized and it’s usually just more of the UFC is Hell and Dana is the devil,yet M1 and Fedor are great,Strikeforce is the future,Hendo will be better off fighting in a weaker talent pool than mixing it up with the best MW’s and even though most of japanese MMA is run by the Yakuza,bribes,one sided mismatches and freakshow fights are all for the betterment of MMA

I am not going to get into a Pride vs UFC because I don't give a shit about that but don't forget though at the time Pride folded it was widely regarded as the UFC's equal and the top echelon of fighters for Pride were as good if not better than the best of the UFC. They more than deserved those opportunities.

The names you listed that had more fights before title shots were guys who had started and made a name for themselves in the UFC, fighting up the ranks. None of them had the CVs or had fought the same quality of fighter as those Pride fighters who came in and got immediate shots.

Nog's shot was part of a 4 way tournament type thing so it wasn't like an immediate shot. Nog was widely regarded as possibly the 2nd or 3rd best heavyweight in the world at the time too.

Franklin had run out of legit opponents anyway and Silva ended up kneeing him out of the weight class he had dominated for a while. If Silva had lost that first fight, Leben would have been challenging for a title for gods sake.

Henderson was reigning champion in two weight classes in Pride so more than deserved any shots he got.

Rampage got his shot because Chuck wanted to avenge the only loss he hadn't reversed at that stage so his buddy Dana arranged it.

They were not fast tracked - they deserved them because they were more worthy than some of the UFC bred competitors. The only one I agree with in your post was Brock Lesnar, who got fast tracked for money making reasons more than anything else.

You really think they all got shots because they had earned them for the UFC belt(even though most had never even fought there before)and not because they were exactly the same as the brock situation and they were the biggest money earning fights for the UFC that they could make.
Gin you say only Brock is the one you agree with me about but in the sentance before you basicly say Rampage didn't deserve his and it was only because Chuck asked for it is why he got it,what had Rampage ever done in Pride that made him deserving of a shot at the UFC belt?

I'm also not sure that Leban was supposed to be next in line,as I remember it,Leban was basicly just a tune up fight for Silva,shit Nate,Okami,Cote,Horn and many others were in front of Leban at the time.

Nog hadn't won anything of note in about 5 years before he signed with the UFC (but that is forgivable since Fedor was there)and he was very lucky in getting past Herring and looked absolutely shocking doing so,but was still given a shot at the belt after that.I can't think of many fighters that have put on a performance like that and still get a shot at the title.(Maynards shot soon disappeared quickly after his last poor performance that he won against diaz)

And Hendo as you say won belts in Pride and desrved his shot,does that mean that strikeforce/Belletor/Dream/Sengoku and other champs would also be automatic no 1 contenders if they came to the UFC now,I don't think so and the way Dan performed in the UFC,I think it would of been better for him to have had a few tune up fights first.


They all had made it to near the top rankings in Pride no doubt but that was in Pride under different rules and regulations,nearly a completely different sport altogether and when they all came to the UFC don't you think that there was already fighters that had thought they had worked their way up the UFC rankings and deserved to make a claim for the number 1 or 2 contender spots before these new comers.

Look like I've said I love all these fighters but it doesn't mean they deserved title shots in the UFC so quick when other fighters had been working their bolloxs of for the same oppotunities.

Payne, like I said Pride was up there with the UFC in terms of being the biggest and best MMA organisation at the time. It is not like these days where the UFC is clearly the no 1 organisation and have most of the top fighters on contract. Compare it to business in general, when a company looks to hire a new CEO for example, do they choose the mediocre guy who has worked their way up the ranks of their organisation or do they head hunt the best person from outside the firm for the job who has similar experience elsewhere? In most cases, they go for the best option available.

You are right about the Rampage one but again that was gifted because of a UFC decision rather than Pride guys getting an unfair advantage just because they came from Pride. Liddell had just about cleared the LHW ranks as well, similar to Franklin.

With Hendo, who did he lose his first 2 UFC fights to? Ex-Pride fighters...

Maybe not all the champs in smaller orgs these days would get a shot at a title but if Aoki joined the UFC would you begrudge him an immediate shot at BJ Penn? If Fedor had joined at the same time as the other Pride guys, would he have deserved a shot at Randy or whoever was champ at the time?

I have no Pride bias but I think that those shots were justified on their Pride performances.

I wouldn't have normally replied to the post but Anfield is out for a couple of weeks getting surgery (hope it goes well bro!!) so I thought I would sub in for him I don't think I did him justice though.....

I wouldn't nor do I begrudge any of them for getting the Title shots,I've enjoyed them all and after all as a fan that's all its about,do I personally think they were deserved,no I don't,did I want to see them all,damn right I did.

I like your CEO example,but the only problem with that is they are signed up as tradesmen to do the same job as all the other employed fighters and not to help run or grow the company.

If I've been a plumber for 20 years and the company I work for goes under,would I walk into another plumbing job ahead of all their long term plumbers and demand more money and extra perks,no I'd be just another worker on a new workforce that would have to prove my self to my new employers.


and I think you did a great job standing in for Anfeid,except you've got to work a little harder on resorting to insulting people who say things that you disagree with

I have to say I agree with this for the most part. I don't know if he's just trolling or actually beleives this but I think its right. Machida didn't "deserve" the decision to be exact, he won a very close fight in the eyes of the judges. Very close fight, he got the nod.

Nate,Okami,Cote,Horn and many others were in front of Leban at the time.

Un true. Leben beat Coté (in a lucky SD), was on a 6 fight win streak and had wins over Riveria and Randach as well. As side from 2 of thos fights, all were finishes, some brutal KOs and a nice armbar there as well. At this point, Leben was the biggest rising MW prospect in the sport, had he beaten Silva he would have most likely got the shot. Horn was having problems with his contract and left soon after, Nate hadn't beaten impressive competition and was caught roiding as well and Okami had beaten no one. He had no personality, was a boring fighter, couldn't speak English and wasn't marketable at all. Leben was all those things.

Shogun in the UFC didn't deserve the shot in the first place to be fair. Looked awful against Griffin, even worse against old man Coleman, in what was one of the worst fights of 2009. Beat a chinny, past it Liddell coming off a brutal KO and a long layoff. Sometimes its the performance thats key, an impressive performance means a title shot. GSP, Silva, Lesnar were all super impressive in there first few fights. Shogun was not.

BTW, I really like Shogun as a fighter, I think he has the most impressive GP run and win ever and his style is excellent. I didn't want him to have a title shot so early because I think he needed more time to improve his skill, a win over someone like Rampage would have meant he deserved it completely. I think he can beat Machida in the rematch.

I forgot Leban had a win over Cote,but still I don't think Leban was close to a title shot at the time,he was on a good run after losing twice on TUF,but the UFC had not even put him on a main card yet,just fight nights.

I'm pretty sure at the time Lindland was known as the top MW in the world followed closely by Silva and Franklin and also Okami,Horn and Nate were definitely in the top 10 in 06.

Thats a good point as well about him not being on the main card but as I said, Horn was a top 10 MW but had contract problems and left soon after. Same with Lindland, because he is so fucking boring. Okami still wasn't well known at the time, he hadn't fought any top fighter, didn't speak English and had no charisma. Leben was still very popular at the time and labeled an exciting fighter. Nate was suspended for steroids.

Still, Silva didn't really deserve the shot but you have to consider there was a lack of quality to contenders. Silva came out, and dismantled Leben which was a big deal because he was known for his iron chin and being a brawler. Very impressive performance, Silva wasn't very well known before that. Borederline top 10. The difference is Silva was given a title shot based on an impressive performance, Shogun was given one based on past performances.

Oh and I think Franklin was the top MW at the time, but im not sure what was happening with the PRIDE MW division (or WW) then. Lindland wasn't ever the best MW in the world.

I think his performance against Machida shows why he got the title shot doesn't it?

Yes it was a title winning performance but it wasn't enough because Machida equalled it, and in the judges eyes surpassed it. My point is, he didn't deserve it in the first place, like Serra vs GSP. Serra never deserved the title shot, but he still won it. Shouldn't happen.

Its fine he is getting a shot now because all the other contenders are currently occupied, he doesn't really deserve it though.

I think Shogun go the title shot because his style of Muay Thai would cancel out Machida's Karate' style and it kinda did to be fair! I can't think of anyone at LHW with shoguns muay thai style maybe vera, but shogun shits on vera... although it probably wasn't right, I thought that fight was one of the best in 2009, not sure the rematch will live up to the same standard as I believe Machida will sort his weakness' out and beat Shogun...

Slightly off topic... I remember watching the countdown show for that fight and it reminded me alot of when GSP lost to Serra, in the way the title had kinda gone to Machida's head. He looked like someone who thought he was a superstar... Hopefully he will get back to his best, although I would love to see shogun beat him!