UFC on Fox 5, Spoilers

Just seen the 4 main fights, Rory Macdonal is right at the top of that devision, a Condit rematch makes most sence though Kos has offered to fight him. Hendricks had a lot of noise about Diaz getting the title shot and has said he will wait. Devision couldnt be better.

His striking is very good and so is his wrestling. I know they go on about him training just MMA from 14 but he is very complete really mixed that striking up and showed he could fight a different game against a different oponent, im backing him in a condit rematch. 2 wins and he could be legit Next in line for GSP Wonder if we get another Evans/Jones senario then!

I still Feel Penn could be a great 155er and a fight with Nate Diaz is something id like to see, calls for retirement are a bit premature. Rory IMO is a future Champ maby even at 185, he is 200lbs at this age. BJ cant keep beating Bigger men as the sport evolves. Suppose most support Dana in wanting him retired. Id like to hear from Penn.

Looks like Melendez wont have to cut to 155. Nate doesnt have an answer for a Wrestler like that, if not better TDD he could do with working on Muay Thai Knees to at least have the added deterant of that for those lookning to shoot on him.

Shogun looked allright, good Idea going for Leg locks against someone gustaffsons build, I think it would have been a great Idea on Jones too. Hope he isnt too down on a loss, he hung in well for 2 rounds, and there are big fights at 205 for him in a Hendo rematch, fight with Sonnen, Machida rubbermatch, Evans, Nog rematch, welcome Mousasi to the UFC maby even a catchweight of 195 to get one of them used to moving down... I dont see him moving to 185 he has always seemed hesitant to cut the weight or says he couldnt when its brought up.

Looks like Gus could get Machida if insted of a title shot if Hendo is out. He is good but not quite looking the fighter to beat Bones yet, though those Hands are better, Id say reach or not he could outbox Jones on the feet especially given the massive power differential in the hands. Im calling Shogun vs Hendo 2 to make Hendo earn his shot again and settle that score without controversy because he was lucky nobody gives 10-8s's

Matt Brown is cracking, Great win. Ebersole would be a good fight next id say.

Bendo is a great fighter, Melendez vs Bendo is the fight id imaing people want to happen now, Nate didnt do as well as I though but he is youg enough to get a shot again, Maby test himself against Maynard again to establish himself?

Great card looking forward to watching the rest

I love Shogun but honestly I feel he should have retired after the Vera fight. The current version of Shogun is a slow plodder who relies on Power punching and has no cardio. I was seeing some people saying on other forums that Shogun should hook up with Cordeiro again to try and motivate him to get in shape which might make a little difference but his knees are knackered the man has seen better days. As a fan I'd like to see him retire I just have this horrible feeling he's gonna get beat by a guy like Joey Beltran or somebody his chin can only take so much, Kudos to Gus he got the win but I see massive holes in his game Shogun was landing that telegraphed overhand right all fight.

So disappointed in myself for picking Penn to beat Rory why did I fall fall for BJ's pre fight bull shit he looked way too small, unfit and got completely smashed by a superior fighter hope he retires.

I like Swick but honestly to me he doesn't look healthy one bit he looks gaunt and completely zombiefied in the cage, Brown just roughed him up there's no shame to losing to a guy as tough as Brown but I feel the Swick of old would have battered him with ease.

Bendo is going to take some stopping at 155 he is so relentless and his cardio is ridiculous the way he outclassed Nate really surprised me I was expecting a way more competitive fight. Hard to see who's gonna beat Bendo with Edgar of to 145 speaking of which maybe Aldo might be the man to beat him.

The undercard was good the Jorgensen fight was a great watch and Trujilo fight was pretty entertaining too, The KO's were very impressive The Edwards one was a shocker didn't see that coming.

The one man on the prelims who looked very impressive was Dennis Siver he looked bloody good completely dominated his fight everywhere I went.

I love Shogun but it's been obvious for a while that he is finished as a top fighter. Its the knees! its like he can't change direction!
...he'll wade forwards swinging...the opponent moves and he just seems to keep going.
Before I said that he looks like he is fighting underwater, but now i think he looks like he is fighting on roller skates (underwater).

BJ Penn is so tough, its really remarkable how he survived that fight. I don't think anybody actually likes Rory "the sociopath" McDonald but there is no denying his talent, I think GSP would beat him but thats about the only welterweight that would, IMO.

Henderson has come a long way since the WEC days, great fighter. Im with Ben, Hendo/Melendez has to happen.

Yeah Shoguns knees seem to be the issue, maby thats what stops him training as hard as he should? certainly we arent seeing the roundhouses or jumping kicks he used to use with great effect. He seems to wade forward in stright lines as you say chesty with lunging punches and honestly this will be enough to beat most Lhw's around. He cant get that torque to move well or turn into kicks like he used to. Shame.

I dont like the call for him to retire cowboys, yeah he is past his best but he shouldnt have a loss to Hendo on his record, lets be honest that fight was a draw, Hendo won for no other reason than judges failed to score a clear 10-8 round... He beat Forrest and in their most recent figth KO'd Machida.

Hendo and Machida are legit contenders but Shogun must retire because he looses to the guy people say is on of the only tests left for Jones?

I dont see him as a title contender any more but look at the Lhw rankings, he is still a solid top 10 guy no doubt about it. At 31 just because there are now a couple of 20 year olds who have surpassed him isnt a big deal. Calls for his retirement are premature even if he wont hold that title again. He produces good fights and is still high level.

What do the Lhw ranking even look like

The top 4 are clear, Bones, Gus, Machida and Hendo... is there anyone else even over Shogun? If he is still top 5ish retirement talk is madness I reckon.

I understand what your saying Ben but I just don't like the punishment Shogun is getting I just have this feeling some unheralded fighter is going to stop him, I mean If he does continue which I'm sure he will I'm just not sure where he goes as lets be honest he is never gonna regain the LHW strap again

I totally forgot Melendez but I'm sure I read he is likely to enter the UFC at 145lbs (maybe this is If Diaz had won the Title...I just don't know) which I think would be a good move for him.

Know what you mean about Shogun some day some unknown might hand him his ass. He isnt going to improve or anything, But when you got guys like The Janitor still knocking about its hard to see why Shogun should retire. Maby another Vera style step down? Maldonado maby? Would be an epic fight.

Yeah Gil said he might cut to 145 if Nate won the title. I dont think he will try the cut now, he isnt undersized at 155lbs. Though Bendo could make him feel this way, he has to be one of the biggest 155ers out there and said he is struggling with the weight as he gets older. Still with 155 looking a lot less stacked Gil is rightfull challenger.

Pettis beating Cerrone is for the only man who could fight Bendo 1st because he is due his shot.

Wonder where and when Alvarez will fit in. Do you think he could make 145 easier than Gil? He is in better shape in terms of body fat he has to work with but he always looks like one of the smaller 155ers.

Shogun looked awful. He's finished. Gustaffson never had to get out of first gear and still beat him easily. The knee injuries and the beatings Shogun took from Jones and Henderson on top of the years of getting knocked out in practice at Chute Boxe and the wars in Pride have ended him as any sort of force. Time for him to retire, would be awful to see him become a gatekeeper. Not sure why you're trying to compare Shogun's situation to the Janitor Ben, The Janitor was never an elite fighter, always a gate keeper and nothing more.

Rashad is also clearly over Shogun by the way. Garbage to suggest Henderson didn't beat him as well. Henderson won the first and battered him for the next 2 and controlled over 3 minutes of the fourth. Wasn't close to a draw. Henderson should have won 4 rounds, including a 10-8 where he almost finished him and just battered him around the cage, against 1 round to Shogun which should have been a 10-8.

Finished, done, time to retire. You need to stop thinking about your own wish to see fighters fight and start considering their health Ben. You're the same with Wandi, trying to make out he's got something left to offer. In truth he's just doing himself harm and has become a punching bag. Chris fucking Leben sparked him, Cung Le kicked the shit out of him until he gassed.

Gustaffson looked good but he's still one or two fights away from a title shot IMO. Henderson's knee is fine, he'll be ready for Machida and the winner of that will get Bones or Sonnen. Shame Gustaffson is training with Davis, I'd like to see a rematch there. Gustaffson vs Rashad would be good.

McDonald looked good but BJ is finished as well. Not really impressed by McDonalds win because BJ's a shot 155er and McDonald's huge. Size advantage made more of a difference than anything else. McDonald's hands looked impressive but he was extremely disrespectful with his Ali shuffles and dropping his hands. Who the fuck does he think he is? He's also the most boring bellend in the sport when it comes to interviews. He's another Jon Jones in terms of personality and hiding in a weight class below where he should be. It was hilarious that the crowd turned from cheering him to booing him because of his antics. A cock of the highest order.

McDonald-Hendricks makes the most sense since GSP doesn't seem to want Hendricks and GSP-Diaz seems to be in the works. Let's see McDonald drop his hands in front of Hendricks.

Nate just got bullied. Henderson was impressive and made his strength, leg kicks and wrestling count. Not sure where Nate goes next. Gilbert or Pettis if he gets past Cerrone are the two obvious fights for Henderson. I think he beats both of them to be honest.

Two of the 3 main fights were size mismatches and it's something that needs to be addressed in MMA. They need to change the rules with regards to weight. A weigh-in one week before a fight, ala most top end boxing fights these days, where both fighters have to be within 15 lbs of the weight limit, and another on the morning of the fight where they can't be any more than 10lbs over the limit. That would solve the problem and correct the weight classes by putting guys where they belong. It could well mean the introduction of another weight class or 2, but it needs to be done.

I don't care if fighters can make the cut of 20-30-40lbs, it takes away from the skill of fighting and spoils the sport and it has devastating long term affects on the body. BJ-Rory was the equivalent of Rashad Evans fighting JDS. Rashad is 5'11 and walks into the cage at about 215, JDS is 6'3 and walks in at 240 or so. BJ is 5'9 and walked in at 168 same as he weighed in and Rory is 6'0 and weighed about 200 when he walked in. That's not fair, simple. Would anyone, other than people who'd like to see Rashad get KO'd, think that Rashad vs JDS was a fair fight? I don't think so. Neither was BJ vs Rory.

Yeah Anfield think your on to something with the weight issues mate. Granted its up to a figther where they fight but it isnt boxing where you can take a shit and move 2 devisions.

10lbs, 15lbs and 20lbs between devisions is a sizeable jump.

Weight cutting is a massive part of the sport that the older generation didnt do as much of and arent used to it so we are seeing these 30lbs size differences in the same devision.

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We will agree to disagree about Hendo vs Shogun but a lot of MMA sites scored it as a draw too. Shogun landed 19 more strikes, and 5 takedowns to 1 as well as 8 passes when he got the takedowns to Hendos 2....

Anyway it was a very close fight, if Shogun can hang with a number 1 contender in Hendo, beat a number 1 contender in Machida and beat a Former champ in Forrest recently why call it a day?

I understand Wand should retire, He is getting KO'd and beat by guys whos name shouldnt be mentioned in the same sentince as him like Leben but Shogun is a completley different situation

1. Bones
2. Machida
3. Hendo
4. Evans
5. Gus
6. Shogun

6th ranked, 31 years old, beat a guy ranked above him, his 2 losses were title eliminators....

Is Retirement talk to keep a legacy intact? There are a couple ranked below Shogun that might beat him, my thinking is Davis could beat him, and Glover too. But what about the fights left for him, Lil Nog rematch etc..

I dont get how high level guys like Shogun have people making noise for him to retire but lower level guys dont... is it because he has more to loose legacy wise?

Shogun is done, he wouldnt beat Machida now he would get badly hurt - Shogun is starting too look like Ninja, he is so easy to hit now.

Think BJ is also done to be honest and you cant take much from Saturday if you are trying to rate Mcdonald

Mcdonald was struggling with Che Mills standing so he took that fight to the ground pretty quickly, if GSP doesnt want Hendricks then that would be a better fight to judge Mcdonald or even Mcdonald vs Kos,.

Think Ben Henderson is a great fighter and in a strange way I think people should now be giving Frankie Edgar a bit more credit, cant wait for Aldo vs Edgar.

Thought it was a bit of a sweeping statement on teh commetary that Gustaffson is the best fighter out of Europe in the last ten years, think there would be a couple of dutch fighters at least arguing that one.

Yeah Edgar is getting props for his close fights with Bendo. People forget Pettis beat Bendo though, the fight with Nate could well have made him look a lot better than he is.

Im sick of saying Penn should fight at 155, id be happy enough if he retired, but he would have 200lbs men cracking his ribs if he realise he wasnt a Ww. Imagine Thiago Alves or someone smashing into him at Welter.

Again why should a top 6 ranked guy retire at 31? Ive never heard calls for such a highly ranked guy to hang the gloves up.

Who is the best fighter out of Europe 10 years ago they talk about then? Overeem is better than him Siver is 3rd ranked at Fw on fightmatrix... Struve is close, Khalidov? Dare I say Bisping... Kampmann? Pickett? eh I dont see him as Europes big hope there are other great Europeans

kavik2 wrote:Shogun is done, he wouldnt beat Machida now he would get badly hurt - Shogun is starting too look like Ninja, he is so easy to hit now.

That's a bloody good and scary comparison I never thought of that until you've just mention It, He Is starting to look like Ninja.

I really though I was watching Ninja for a bit on Saturday, the way his face is puffed up after a round he looked just like him,

the worry isnt so much that Shogun cant fight anymore, the worry is how much he has declined since the last knee op and how easy he is too hit, add to that he has a big heart and a solid chin and it isnt a good mix when fighting at the very top level.


Not sure who is the best european fighter in the last ten years just felt it was a really sweeping statement by Goldberg to say Gustaffson clearly is the best european fighter in the last ten years.

Does anyone else have any doubts about the Bendo vs Pettis fight or is it just me tho?

The Matrix kick didnt sit well with me I have to be honest

Ben I think it's the fact people respect shogun so much that they wana see him retire.

Dont think you can use his win over machida as a reason to keep going, need to look at his performances since then. Battered by jones, battered by hendo until he gassed, good win over griffin who would lose to any credible LHW in UFC at this stage in his career and a win over Vera.

Let's say shogun was 100% in the machida fights, since then he's probably going at 60% which is hard to watch. I think had he not had the knee problems he'd still be beating hendo, machida and the best in the LHW division apart from jones. Yes he can still beat some of the top LHW's but shoguns a champ and always been an elite fighter, he's not going to get near that level ever again so I'd rather he retires.

Best fighter from Europe, errrrr Russia is in Europe guys....

When did Fedor start though, surely it was over ten years ago like Bas also.

Not sure if that was why they said last ten years, but wouldnt be surprised if they were just ignoring non UFC fighters and in particular Fedor,

rudeboyben84 wrote:Yeah Anfield think your on to something with the weight issues mate. Granted its up to a figther where they fight but it isnt boxing where you can take a shit and move 2 devisions.

10lbs, 15lbs and 20lbs between devisions is a sizeable jump.

Weight cutting is a massive part of the sport that the older generation didnt do as much of and arent used to it so we are seeing these 30lbs size differences in the same devision.

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We will agree to disagree about Hendo vs Shogun but a lot of MMA sites scored it as a draw too. Shogun landed 19 more strikes, and 5 takedowns to 1 as well as 8 passes when he got the takedowns to Hendos 2....

Anyway it was a very close fight, if Shogun can hang with a number 1 contender in Hendo, beat a number 1 contender in Machida and beat a Former champ in Forrest recently why call it a day?

I understand Wand should retire, He is getting KO'd and beat by guys whos name shouldnt be mentioned in the same sentince as him like Leben but Shogun is a completley different situation

1. Bones
2. Machida
3. Hendo
4. Evans
5. Gus
6. Shogun

6th ranked, 31 years old, beat a guy ranked above him, his 2 losses were title eliminators....

Is Retirement talk to keep a legacy intact? There are a couple ranked below Shogun that might beat him, my thinking is Davis could beat him, and Glover too. But what about the fights left for him, Lil Nog rematch etc..

I dont get how high level guys like Shogun have people making noise for him to retire but lower level guys dont... is it because he has more to loose legacy wise?

He landed all those extra strikes in the final round when Henderson was just trying to get through the round. Henderson didn't need to take him down because he was beating him so easily on the feet.

Shogun's one of the all time greats, arguably the greatest LHW of all time, I just don't want to see him end up with a mediocre record like Chuck, or like Wandi has now, with losses to guys who aren't fit to hand him his water bottle. He's risking his legacy and his health. It's different for a middle of the road guy. Their legacy is that they were tough gatekeepers who won a few big ones, lost a few big ones but was always a tough fight. You can still be a tough gatekeeper after your ability leaves you. But Shogun was so much more than that. Pride-era Shogun was a sight to behold. We know that because we saw him. We'll always know how good he was, but in 10 years when the next generation are looking at him, would you really want him having losses to average guys on his record and being judged on those? And that's what he will be judged on because age wise, he should really be in his prime for the next 3 years or so. His record won't show injuries, it won't show wars. It'll show wins, and losses.

kavik2 wrote:Does anyone else have any doubts about the Bendo vs Pettis fight or is it just me tho?

The Matrix kick didnt sit well with me I have to be honest

I think Henderson won that fight.

rudeboyben84 wrote:

Again why should a top 6 ranked guy retire at 31? Ive never heard calls for such a highly ranked guy to hang the gloves up.

He's ranked 6th because there's only 5 good fighters left in the division. Davis and Glover will bypass him in 2013 though, both are on the verge of becoming good fighters. Shogun will then be ranked 8th, because there's 7 good fighters in the division.

He looked awful against Vera, the Machida win was before the last knee injury and before the two beatings he took from Jones and Henderson, and Forrest is shot to pieces so beating him proves fuck all. Forrest could barely handle Tito! Shogun is finished, the Ninja comparison is spot on. He's closer to Ninja's level now than the level he was at before.

Fedor made his debut more than 10 years ago, as did Reem. Reem's fighting 13 years at this point.

I had no problem with the Gustaffson line. I agree with it. Best European fighter to come along in the last 10 years. No doubt for me.

None of the Brits are as good as him. Siver's a middle of the road gatekeeper. Struve yet to win a big fight.

Anfields5thKing wrote:Fedor made his debut more than 10 years ago, as did Reem. Reem's fighting 13 years at this point.

I had no problem with the Gustaffson line. I agree with it. Best European fighter to come along in the last 10 years. No doubt for me.

None of the Brits are as good as him. Siver's a middle of the road gatekeeper. Struve yet to win a big fight.

I really didnt think Reem had been going that long, and yes Siver is very overated.

I think for a while now there's been this attitude that even a fighter on the decline has a place in the sport if they are being given appropriate match-ups for their skill level. I don't entirely disagree with this statement, but there comes a point where I don't want to see guys like Wanderlei, Shogun, Cro Cop, Fedor, Nogueira, Penn, Couture, Hughes, Liddell etc getting beat by guys they could have taken in their prime. Dana urges some fighters towards retirement, but he's really only been really vocal about the UFC old guard.

You have to look at these guys and take the wins they pick up now and compare them to the losses they're taking too. Is it really worth Wanderlei fighting if he's trading wins against Cung Le vs knockout losses to Leben? Not really in my eyes. Likewise, I don't really want to see Shogun be a guy who goes the same way, because he will if he goes on too long. One day some middling 205er will clip him and he'll go down and out like he never would have a few years ago.

I know we don't have quite as much an issue as boxing does about fighters ending up with brain issues after their career, MMA fighter generally don't take as many ambient shots throughout their fights, but some fans talk about this idea like it makes MMA immune to brain injuries. Some fighters are absolutely going to have issues. It wouldn't shock me if it was fighters like Nogueira, Shogun, Wanderlei, and I really dislike that thought. Ninja already allegedly has slurred speech. Sadly it's a bigger problem at heavyweight and light heavyweight because of their relative lack of depth. You're only ever two good wins or so from being "in the mix" and I think that keeps guys like Nogueira hanging around the division. I can understand Shogun hanging on to this point, beating Gustaffson would have maybe given him one last title shot, but the fact he has genuinely been eclipsed by a new young talent, that should give good closure to his career. It's time to stop.

Fortunately, I think some fighters are getting a bit more of an idea when to go out. Fedor got it right, and I really can't see guys like GSP and Anderson hanging around past their best.

On Henderson, I'm still not completely sold on him. I think Diaz's weaknesses played into his hands. Diaz can't deal with leg kicks, can't stop takedowns, which basically allowed Henderson to go to town with his only viable offense.

Fighters who can legitimately wrestle and scramble, and also box, will give Henderson problems. Edgar really in the minds of most deserved the decision, and because Henderson could take him down, Edgar really made him look quite limited standing. I think Melendez and Alvarez can beat him. Melendez is maybe one of the only lightweights who scrambles as well as Henderson does, and he's also a more effective boxer. Alvarez, inspite of getting dropped in nearly every fight, is constantly improving his game, his kicking and submissions have come on remarkably since 2008.

Also, I really want to see Michael Chandler fighting again, and against better competition. For all we know, he might be the best there is.

sunthunder wrote:On Henderson, I'm still not completely sold on him. I think Diaz's weaknesses played into his hands. Diaz can't deal with leg kicks, can't stop takedowns, which basically allowed Henderson to go to town with his only viable offense.

Fighters who can legitimately wrestle and scramble, and also box, will give Henderson problems. Edgar really in the minds of most deserved the decision, and because Henderson could take him down, Edgar really made him look quite limited standing. I think Melendez and Alvarez can beat him. Melendez is maybe one of the only lightweights who scrambles as well as Henderson does, and he's also a more effective boxer. Alvarez, inspite of getting dropped in nearly every fight, is constantly improving his game, his kicking and submissions have come on remarkably since 2008.

Also, I really want to see Michael Chandler fighting again, and against better competition. For all we know, he might be the best there is.

Edgar's speed was what caused the most problems for Henderson IMO. Gil and Eddie aren't as quick as him and while they scramble well they don't have the speed of Edgar to get in and out and then away.