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    "Too much wrestling in UFC" - Dan Hardy.

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    Post  The_Axe_Emperor Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:23 pm

    "Nik Lentz didn't come to fight Andre (Winner), he actually came to avoid one at all costs, like he'd be shortlisted for the Nobel Peace Prize and didn't want to mess up his chances of winning it.

    Lentz grabbed hold of Dre's leg for three coma-inducing rounds, which the ticket-paying public clearly didn't appreciate.

    Rather than saying 'oh, these guys can't wrestle', I think the problem is there's beginning to be too much wrestling in UFC Octagon, not too little of it in the gym. There are a lot of people out there calling themselves 'UFC fighters' who are nothing of the kind. In the UFC, you should go for finishes.

    You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either.

    But there's guys out there who just want to use wrestling to hold a stalemate for 15 minutes, without ever risking going for ground and pounds or attempting submissions.

    The Athletic Commissions need to look at the scoring and refereeing to stop this from becoming a problem. If a guy is in a dominant position, but not actually doing anything offensive – stand 'em back up.


    This isn't 'cheating within the rules' – it is actually against the rules. 'Timidity' is outlawed in the Unified MMA rules and what better describes the act of holding on to an opponent and waiting for the clock to tick down with no attempt or inclination to do any damage?

    And that's not the same as saying all UFC bouts have to be kickboxing or Thai boxing matches in order to be entertaining. That's not what I am saying.

    One of the best fights of the year was George SotXX – who is a friend of mine and a guy I am tipping to win the Lightweight Title next year – beating Joe Stevenson at UFC 110.

    About 13 of the 15 minute war was on the ground, but both guys were going for submissions, ground strikes, sweeps or trying to improve their positions constantly."



    http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/sport/Dan-Hardy-Column/article-2610453-detail/article.html





    Good read, he actually makes some pretty good points.
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    Post  Moose Stuff For Money... Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:41 pm

    There were quite a few points during the Winner v Lentz fight I found myself shouting at the TV for the ref to stand the action up, however I can't recall him even giving Lentz a warning to improve his position. It was frustrating to watch another fight won by a wrestler with a 'game plan'. The UFC had the chance to win over some of the boxing fans who had tuned in to the event to see Toney fight, however watching Lentz and Maynard grind out decisions will probably only have backed up the allegations of MMA as two gay men laying on top of each other.
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    Post  The_Axe_Emperor Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:46 pm

    Moose Stuff For Money... wrote:There were quite a few points during the Winner v Lentz fight I found myself shouting at the TV for the ref to stand the action up, however I can't recall him even giving Lentz a warning to improve his position. It was frustrating to watch another fight won by a wrestler with a 'game plan'. The UFC had the chance to win over some of the boxing fans who had tuned in to the event to see Toney fight, however watching Lentz and Maynard grind out decisions will probably only have backed up the allegations of MMA as two gay men laying on top of each other.


    Same here mate, its so frustrating to see someone show up to a 'fight' with absolutely no intention of fighting. Controlling is not fighting and its so annoying to watch, as a fan.


    Great point by Dan though, "One of the best fights of the year was George Sotiropoulos beating Joe Stevenson at UFC 110. About 13 of the 15 minute war was on the ground, but both guys were going for submissions, ground strikes, sweeps or trying to improve their positions constantly."

    Just shows that ground fights can be exciting.
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    Post  rudeboyben84 Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:09 am

    Yep 100% agree with Hardy. Well said, Pinning a guy down and nothing more is just stalling the figth because you are considered to be winning on the top. Its Bollox. Its stalling the fight, Its no different in my eyes than a boxer landing a jab then Tieing up and repeating....

    Some refs allow it far more than others, Hardy isnt on about a rule change he is just saying the refs need to interperate the rules differently.

    Big fan of Hardy, well said.
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    Post  Once Mohawked Pete Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:35 am

    Completelty agree. The rules are there as well, they just need to be enforced.

    Just wondering how much more bias UFC needs to show towards wrestlers? I want to see TRUE mixed martial arts, not dry-humping for 15minutes. As Dan said though. When two guys are utilising a ground game, and trying to advance position and look for subs, it can be entertaining. The sooner a yellow card systme is in troduced, (or even the rules enforced correctly), the better.


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    Post  The_Axe_Emperor Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:35 am



    Good ground battle, give me this sort of fight anyday over a Jon Fitch/Lay Praynard type of fight.
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    Post  manschesthair_utd Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:18 pm

    he hit the nail on the head when he said look at the scoring system.

    if they take octagon control away and replace it with "effort/proximity to finish the fight" it will take some getting used to but be better in the long run!
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    Post  efils_god Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:35 pm

    I agree with Hardy, and he has really grown on me recently. He's a funny guy.

    I agree in that there has been a mssive increase in 'wrestling' as a base for MMA, and people using this to control fighters who genuinely want to finish a fight. Rule changes to prevent or limit this would make fights so much more exciting.

    That said, unless they change the rules, it is what it is, and British fighters will continue to get dominated in that department (with a few exceptions) until they improve their TDD or the rules change.
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    Post  ChelseaQuinsfan Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:35 pm

    Couln't agree more with this, the judging really needs to be changed. IMO Lentz only really won the last round because thats when he actually started to look for the finish. He was looking for a RnC so thats ok, but the rest of the fight he did nothing. I think Winner won the first because while nothing really happened, atleast Winner rocked him once. Second round was a draw for me, because litterly nothing happnened. Judges are too scared to call draws anymore for a reason unknown to me.
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    Post  Anfields5thKing Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:56 pm

    Strange comments from Chelski giving his hero is the king of the dryhumpers.
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    Post  ChelseaQuinsfan Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:47 am

    I don't know when Maynard became my hero, but nice comment all the same.
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    Post  Anfields5thKing Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:25 am

    The only man that likes to see GSP dryhumping other men more than you is Greg "hit him with your groin" Jackson.
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    Post  KJGould Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:37 pm

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    Post  manschesthair_utd Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:51 pm

    thanks for posting KJ.
    I remember Fedor used a good technique to escpae getting pinned to the cage, he basically used his hips to push off the fence and feinted an outside trip...obviously Rogers nearly shat himself and got out of there!!

    just another thing, i dont think having Randy Couture as a cheif of the athletic commission or whatever, will help at all, he is the one who uses cage control as his #1 tactic...he doesnt fight people either, he neautralises them.
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    Post  KJGould Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:41 pm

    My point was more to do with having a retired fighter who knows the sport, compared to the current peoplewho come from Boxing or maybe have no sports background at all.

    Interestingly one of the New Jersey commissioners is not only a doctor but a purple belt in BJJ. So maybe things are changing, slowly but surely.
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    Post  The_Axe_Emperor Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:45 pm

    Never mind a retired fighter, i would take any knowledgeable MMA fan who knows the rules and what makes good exciting fights over the rabble that area in the Athletic Commissions at the moment.

    Someone like Dan Hardy would be perfect.
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    Post  Anfields5thKing Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:09 pm

    Not being funny, but having ex fighters on commissions is a bad idea. They will want the rules changed to suit whatever THEIR preferred tactics were/are. Won't be in any way objective or beneficial to the sport.

    The rules need to be changed to remove this octagon control bullshit. UFC has always favoured wrestlers.

    I say get rid of cage and it'll solve a lot of problems. Even the great wrestlers in Pride, Coleman and Randleman never tried to dry-hump their way to victory.
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    Post  Anfields5thKing Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:21 pm

    That being said, KJ, your articles are very well written.
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    Post  Moose Stuff For Money... Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:44 pm

    Aoki criticises the "American wrestling sytle"...

    When Shinya Aoki claimed the DREAM lightweight belt he ranked himself No. 2 behind his idol BJ Penn. With Frankie Edgar's second victory over Penn it is clear that there is a new top lightweight king, but Aoki isn't buying it.

    "I am really a huge fan of BJ Penn, he is one of my favorite fighters. He lost by decision. When we look at martial arts in it's most extreme form, we need to win by submission or knockout. In that sense, he didn't lose. He lost that fight but he is still 'the man'. He is still my favorite fighter."

    With Edgar holding the strap we once again have a fighter with a wrestling backbone at the top of the UFC lightweight division and with Gray Maynard being the next likely challenger, it doesn't look like that will change any time soon. This trend towards wrestling is another thing that Aoki has trouble with.

    "The American wrestling style - punching a little bit, getting a takedown and moving to side control to win the round has no risk. It's an easier fight. It's just using the judges. They don't even have to worry about injuries or anything like that. There is no risk."

    The fact that Aoki uses the lack of risk as a criticism is interesting considering that he also recently claimed that his own goal is "to win against my opponent without being in any dangerous situations" and that fighting with risk "makes the quality of MMA lower."

    "Would you like to see Frankie Edgar vs Gray Maynard? Do you think it would be interesting?" Aoki asks.

    I answer truthfully that I don't think it would be very exciting.

    "Right! I'm a huge fan of the UFC, but I think that it hasn't been very interesting lately. There are good fighters of course but not so many interesting fights. They punch a little bit, then get a takedown and every round is just a repetition of that."

    "I am a big fan of aggressive fighters like BJ Penn, Joe Stevenson, Kenny Florian, Melvin Guillard and Nate Diaz.. Everyone else is just wrestling and it's not interesting at all."

    Aoki's thoughts on wrestling are eerily similar to those of Dan Hardy and like Hardy, Aoki has lost an important fight due to wrestling - Aoki was unable to takedown Gilbert Melendez while Hardy was unable to stop the takedown against Georges St. Pierre.

    "Japanese MMA is totally different. We go for knockouts and submissions from the beginning and going for the decision isn't an option."

    When Aoki attempted to bring his Japanese MMA style to the U.S. it was obviously lacking. Although Gilbert Melendez is not traditionally thought of as a wrestler-boxer, that is certainly how he countered the DREAM lightweight champion during their bout in Strikeforce.

    "It wasn't where I fought, (Japan or America, cage or ring), but I am just still weak. As a fight, I found weakness in myself."

    Aoki's next bout was against Tatsuya Kawajiri for the DREAM Llghtweight title. While Kawajiri is not American, it can be said that he fights like the "American wrestlers" that Aoki objects to. The bout against Kawajiri was dramatically more successful for Aoki due to a change in mindset.

    "After Melendez avoided my takedowns and just punched me I had to change my mindset. I had to get a submission. I was really desperate (against Kawajiri)."

    Aoki believes that he doesn't deserve another shot at Melendez yet, but he must work to earn that fight. Aoki's upcoming bout against Marcus Aurélio at DREAM.16 on Sept. 25th will be the next step towards earning his shot but still, despite BJ Penn's loss to Edgar and Aoki's own loss to Gilbert Melendez, BJ Penn is still at the top of the heap and he is still the goal.

    "BJ Penn, Eddie Alvarez, Gilbert Melendez, Frankie Edgar they are the top four. BJ Penn is still No. 1. The most aggressive fighter is Eddie Alvarez. Frankie Edgar is the most defensive. When Penn lost, I didn't lose my goal at all. It is difficult for me to see that he lost the fight."

    And Gray Maynard? The only man with a win over the UFC lightweight champion and the likely next challenger for the title?

    "Gray Maynard is a good wrestler."
    http://www.mmafighting.com/2010/09/10/shinya-aoki-bj-penn-didnt-lose-wrestlers-has-no-risk/
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    Post  The_Axe_Emperor Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:19 pm

    Nate Marquardt takes a different approach when hearing Dan Hardy's comments about wrestling's dominance in MMA.

    "I think that's just something from someone who isn't a good wrestler," Marquardt said about Hardy. "I think wrestling is a big part of MMA, and you shouldn't complain about it, you should learn it and learn how to defend against it."
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    Post  Anfields5thKing Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:51 pm

    Wrestling is a huge part of MMA, however, because it's so dominant it can be over-used to circumvent the rules.
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    Post  manschesthair_utd Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:50 pm

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    Post  ChelseaQuinsfan Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:32 am

    Aoki can hardly blame Melendez. Melendez used his wrestling to keep the fight standing and battered AOki. Nothing wrong with that, it would have been nice for Melendez to be a little more aggressive and show off his impressive power but to be fair he didn't want Aoki to get a hold of him and pull off one of those crazy ass subs. Everyone loves a good finish, but I don't think a fighter should get wreck less and make a dumbass move to finish.
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    Post  the_king Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:42 am

    does it really matter how a fighter utilises his skill its up to his opponent to fight out of it if he dont like it.
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    Post  KJGould Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:16 am

    The trouble is, no one has told the judges that scoring is ranked by priority.

    Effective Striking & Grappling comes first. Effective needs to be defined as looking to end the fight and dominate the opponent, landing the more significant shots or having the more significant submission attempts (ie a fully locked in sub).

    Aggression comes second, and is when Effective Striking & Grappling between the two fighters is equal.

    If both are equally aggressive and equal in effective striking and grappling, octagon control is used to determine a winner for the round. Octagon control has the least priority but is used to score when everything else is equal.

    Also I think if you drop a guy in a round that should be a 10-8. But the judges have to recognise the difference between a knock down and a slip.

    And I think a saved by the bell fully locked submission should be a 10-8 as well.

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