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Anfields5thKing
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    Josh Barnett at UFC 109

    ChelseaQuinsfan
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    Post  ChelseaQuinsfan Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:08 pm

    Yvel is a good fighter and awful on the ground. He has two submission losses in 52 matches becuase he has fought bums. Subbed my 5'9 Minowa and Igor. Igor isn't a very good grappler, he has 15 submissions wins and almost all of them are because of strikes, kicks or injuries.

    If Barnett was a great grappler he would have submitted Yvel in a round.

    When Mir lost to Nelson he wasn't even a black belt,that Mir was pretty shit. Mir now is a much better fighter and has much better striking. His boxing is crisper and his footwork is better. Barnett couldn't get the better of Nog standing up. In a 29 fight career Barnett has 5 Kos/Tkos. His striking looked average against JEFF MONSON, who's standup sucks. Just terrible and Barnett couldn't do shit, Mir would KO him.

    Id agree Barnett is the better all round grappler for sure but to say he would definitley submit/KO Mir is a complete disregard of Mir's skillset. What Mir has is enough skills to defend himself on the ground. Barnett isn't a great wrestler by any means.
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    Post  manschesthair_utd Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:18 pm

    Barnett passed a drugs test for that fight, puts in an underwhelming performance. Suspect

    although its easy for a grappler to look bad against one of the best judo players ever.
    Nastula failed his test BTW.

    but is brings up an interesting point, Barnett passed a drugs test for the somewhat underwhelming Yvel fight also.

    hmmmm... Suspect Suspect Suspect Suspect Suspect Suspect
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    Post  manschesthair_utd Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:21 pm

    ChelseaQuinsfan wrote:Yvel is a good fighter and awful on the ground. He has two submission losses in 52 matches becuase he has fought bums. Subbed my 5'9 Minowa and Igor. Igor isn't a very good grappler, he has 15 submissions wins and almost all of them are because of strikes, kicks or injuries.

    If Barnett was a great grappler he would have submitted Yvel in a round.

    When Mir lost to Nelson he wasn't even a black belt,that Mir was pretty shit. Mir now is a much better fighter and has much better striking. His boxing is crisper and his footwork is better. Barnett couldn't get the better of Nog standing up. In a 29 fight career Barnett has 5 Kos/Tkos. His striking looked average against JEFF MONSON, who's standup sucks. Just terrible and Barnett couldn't do shit, Mir would KO him.

    Id agree Barnett is the better all round grappler for sure but to say he would definitley submit/KO Mir is a complete disregard of Mir's skillset. What Mir has is enough skills to defend himself on the ground. Barnett isn't a great wrestler by any means.

    you make some good points but the bolded part is glaringly wrong. Mir has terrible ground defense. Its his most obvious and costly weakness.
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    Post  redmeanie77 Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:23 pm

    "Nastula failed his test BTW"


    Haha, your defending Barnetts poor performance by saying his opponent was on roids??

    Josh Barnett at UFC 109 - Page 2 Celebrity-pictures-irony
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    Post  manschesthair_utd Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:27 pm

    i was just saying that as an interesting coincidence, but that picture is gold Laughing
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    Post  KJGould Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:36 pm

    I'm actually big into catch wrestling.

    Position is still important since the original art had pinfalls.

    Pro wrestling came out of catch, but so it collegiate folkstyle wrestling.

    But rather then trying to attain the perfect position before doing anything, catch believes in the fundamentals of control and fundamentals of anatomy meaning the art is free-er to come up with unique submissions and positions for example.

    One of my ambitions in life is to help regrow catch wrestling especially as it has cultural and historical significance to the British Isles, it's our original martial art but has been long forgotten.
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    Post  rudeboyben84 Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:49 pm

    KJGould wrote:I'm actually big into catch wrestling.

    Position is still important since the original art had pinfalls.

    Pro wrestling came out of catch, but so it collegiate folkstyle wrestling.

    But rather then trying to attain the perfect position before doing anything, catch believes in the fundamentals of control and fundamentals of anatomy meaning the art is free-er to come up with unique submissions and positions for example.

    One of my ambitions in life is to help regrow catch wrestling especially as it has cultural and historical significance to the British Isles, it's our original martial art but has been long forgotten.

    What is the History of Catch Wrestling mate? It came from the Brithish Isles? Were did it start? you done it before?
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    Post  KJGould Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:34 pm

    Wrestling in general is the oldest combative art. Cavemen probably swung wildly and then grappled. This would be before they realised bones and clubs of rock could be used as weapons lol.

    But in terms of actual historical records, even as far back as the Romans invading and conquering the British Isles there are accounts by Roman historians of how Roman soldiers liked to wrestle with the locals, except for the Britons since they were too rough and brutal.

    Kings of Britain and Europe have been known to wrestle. I believe there's a picture somewhere of Henry VIII in a wrestling match and he has a figure four head scissor (aka triangle choke). There's also a story of Henry and the King of France wrestling and Henry losing the match, and it's alleged the right to sovereignty of France was on the line and that another reason for Henry splitting with the church of Rome was because Henry had been promised France, but the Pope favoured France's King (Louis XII I believe).

    Catch really began to develop as Britain expanded it's Empire by sea through the navy (merchant and millitary weren't seperated in the beginning). Basically it goes back to the stories of men being "Shanghai'd". If the navy needed to sail and were short of crew, they'd send sailors out to the pubs and get men drunk before clocking them over the head and dragging them back to the ship. When they woke up they were at sea and well on their way to the Americas, or Africa or Asia. Because of the long and historied troubles with France a lot of the navy left port at Liverpool and merseyside so they could avoid the channel and give France a wide birth, and after defeating Spain and their armada had little to fear from their part of the sea (except maybe pirates).

    Anyway, to keep fit and interested the sailors would wrestle in the countries they traded with, wrestle with the natives and so would pick up bits and pieces from all the respective folkstyles (India and Persia in particular) and then bring that back with them when they returned home to Britain.

    They'd land back at Liverpool and some retained what they learned from all these other countries.

    This was the early formation of what we know as Catch, and it became mostly known as Lancashire Wrestling (there were often slightly regional variations, Cornish was another type of wrestling though I don't think there's as much information on it).

    In Lancashire you had a lot of work in the mines, whether it's coal or tin or copper or whathave you, and the miners needed something to keep fit and keep entertained (working class, likely illiterate so didn't read, obviously no tv's or videogames) and so during breaks they'd have wrestling matches and it'd be on the gravel outside the mines.

    The wrestling soon became known as catch or Catch As Cacth Can since it was a nickname, a colloquialism for "Catch me if you can", or as some in the north like to say as in "Catch us if you can".

    It wasn't long before neighbouring towns and communities had competitive matches and of course money came into the equation, and good catch wrestlers could make 10 times what they would as a miner if they were good enough and won. In particular we know Wigan became a hotbed of Catch wrestlers in the early part of the 20th century with Billy Reilly and The Snake Pit. It was from here that wrestlers like Billy Joyce, Jack Dempsey, Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson learned to catch wrestle, with Robinson being famous for training Sakuraba and Barnett (Robinson is in his 70's and still coaches today, but unfortuantely not in the UK). Also on the other side of the pond you had Catch evolving in it's own way in America (since obviously it used to be British and it stands to reason some British wrestlers / sailors ended up staying in America as a result of colonisation).

    There's loads more I could go on about, including Maeda entering matches with some catch wrestlers in europe and adapting his style of Judo as a result, to a claim (not proven) of Karl Gotch showing Masahiko Kimura the Double Wrist Lock in Japan, who went on to beat Helio Gracie with it.
    Anfields5thKing
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    Post  Anfields5thKing Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:41 pm

    Are you planning to start training in Catch mate? I think it would do very well in the UK. British fighters SUCK at wrestling because there isn't a high level of it over here. If you had the experience and the know-how, and obviously the finances, to open a training centre it would attract a lot of interest.
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    Post  rudeboyben84 Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:51 pm

    Outstanding mate!! Good read, interesting stuff. It seems a good style trying to relentlessly go after a Sub like that, I think Id like to Try it myself, Wrestling is what I took off at most in training but didnt have a good sub game at all. Ill have to ask our wrestling coach what he knows about it when he I see him again.
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    Post  KJGould Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:02 am

    This is what's so frustrating. We're known for being bad wrestlers, yet we were winning Olympic gold medals in it a century ago.

    The Olympic comittee had a lot to do with changing the rules of wrestling as we know it, reducing time frames (this was after an Olympic Greco Roman match on 1912 that went on for 11 HOURS - the longest wrestling match in history I think, it's in Guiness world records) but also taking out the submissions or hooks because it was becoming too damaging and they thought it was a bit too brutal.

    So a lot of what we know as Olympic freestyle wrestling is catch wrestling watered and stripped down.

    Greco Roman as we know it, despite it's name, actually developed in France and focuses on clinching and throwing from the upper body only. Maybe because the French were getting a bit carried away grabbing arse lol!
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    Post  KJGould Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:05 am

    This is an example of why I love Catch. Erik Paulson is a criminally underated and unknown MMA coach, though that's changing with his work with Brock Lesnar.

    You won't find this in traditional BJJ. I like BJJ, nothing against it, but you'll find most of their new break throughs actually have a basis elsewhere Wink

    Anfields5thKing
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    Post  Anfields5thKing Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:22 am

    Is there a worse nationality to be than French? Really? It would be awful to be french!
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    Post  ChelseaQuinsfan Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:34 pm

    you make some good points but the bolded part is glaringly wrong. Mir has terrible ground defense. Its his most obvious and costly weakness

    I was actually talking more about submissions than GnP but I could be wrong either way. I agree he gets GnPed too much but I don't think he has ever been submitted in an MMA match.
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    Post  the_king Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:04 am

    talking of catch wrestling being more standup in my mma game i have been branching out in bjj and training in mat wrestling never knew how much more intense it is.

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