P4P No.1 by year (1993-2010)

sunthunder wrote:Yeah I don't really think Shamrock's 1999 was all that great. It was a draw with Tamura and the Tito fight. Tamura of that period is incredibly under-rated, and even though Sakurai's level of competition isn't that great, 7-0 is still great. You can also make a case for Sakurai in 2000 as he went through Kato, Azeredo and Trigg. Kato and Trigg were high in the top 10 at 167lbs at the time.

Sakuraba had the better p4p year in 2000 for me. Coleman's wins aren't all that amazing considering size of opponent and style match-up. Satake was debuting and ended up with a 1-8-1 record, Shoji was undersized, Fujita's corner threw in the towel essentially immediately. Igor was his only really good win.

Saku had Mezger, Royce, Ritch, Renzo and Royler. And he essentially fought Igor to the draw and his corner threw in the towel when the judges demanded an over-time round.

Anfields5thKing wrote:

sunthunder wrote:If there had been judges for that fight, it would have been an utterly lop-sided decision for Saku. Does the same logic apply to any corner stoppage? Santiago-Misaki 2 for example?

The rules of the fight were, you have to KO your opponent or make him tap. Did Saku make Royce tap or did he KO him? No. It's not the same as any other corner stoppage.

sunthunder wrote:

Anfields5thKing wrote:

manschesthair_utd wrote:by the way Anfield, its not really relevant that Frank Shamrock would have beaten Sakurai, since although Shamrock has since fought at middleweight, at the time he was heavyweight and light heavyweight.

same goes for Coleman and Sakuraba.
this is p4p #1 not absolute #1


edit: Saku beat Royce, REALLY.
no question.

At the time Saku fought at all weight classes and could have fought Coleman. IMO Coleman would have destroyed him. Same goes for Shamrock. When judging P4P i base it on if both fighters were in the same weight class who would win. For me, Shamrock was also 185-190 and not all that much bigger than Sakurai and would have beaten him.

I don't know, Sakurai is a lightweight who doesn't like to cut, Shamrock is a middleweight. If they were the same size, Sakurai would beat Shamrock imo.

Albion_Oakley wrote:

Anfields5thKing wrote:

sunthunder wrote:If there had been judges for that fight, it would have been an utterly lop-sided decision for Saku. Does the same logic apply to any corner stoppage? Santiago-Misaki 2 for example?

The rules of the fight were, you have to KO your opponent or make him tap. Did Saku make Royce tap or did he KO him? No. It's not the same as any other corner stoppage.

Nah, I'm not having that. towel is a submission as far as I'm concerned. he sat and spoke to his corner about it and they threw the towel in. What was sakuraba supposed to do, continue hitting him while he was sat on his stool?

Anfields5thKing wrote:

sunthunder wrote:If there had been judges for that fight, it would have been an utterly lop-sided decision for Saku. Does the same logic apply to any corner stoppage? Santiago-Misaki 2 for example?

The rules of the fight were, you have to KO your opponent or make him tap. Did Saku make Royce tap or did he KO him? No. It's not the same as any other corner stoppage.

Anfields5thKing wrote:

sunthunder wrote:Yeah I don't really think Shamrock's 1999 was all that great. It was a draw with Tamura and the Tito fight. Tamura of that period is incredibly under-rated, and even though Sakurai's level of competition isn't that great, 7-0 is still great. You can also make a case for Sakurai in 2000 as he went through Kato, Azeredo and Trigg. Kato and Trigg were high in the top 10 at 167lbs at the time.

Sakuraba had the better p4p year in 2000 for me. Coleman's wins aren't all that amazing considering size of opponent and style match-up. Satake was debuting and ended up with a 1-8-1 record, Shoji was undersized, Fujita's corner threw in the towel essentially immediately. Igor was his only really good win.

Saku had Mezger, Royce, Ritch, Renzo and Royler. And he essentially fought Igor to the draw and his corner threw in the towel when the judges demanded an over-time round.

Royler was not in 2000. And Royce had 1 fight in 5 years before their fight.

manschesthair_utd wrote:well its not really easy to say, by year, but i will do it like this instead (sorry to be awkward).
alot of guesswork here!

may aswell start with:

Ken Shamrock
-(1993-11-12)
Royce Gracie
-(1995-04-07)
Bas Rutten
-(1999-05-07)
Hayato Sakurai
-(2000-05-01)
Kazushi Sakuraba
-(2001-03-25)
Wanderlei Silva
-(2002-08-28)
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
-(2003-03-16)
Fedor Emelianenko

sunthunder wrote:

Anfields5thKing wrote:

sunthunder wrote:Yeah I don't really think Shamrock's 1999 was all that great. It was a draw with Tamura and the Tito fight. Tamura of that period is incredibly under-rated, and even though Sakurai's level of competition isn't that great, 7-0 is still great. You can also make a case for Sakurai in 2000 as he went through Kato, Azeredo and Trigg. Kato and Trigg were high in the top 10 at 167lbs at the time.

Sakuraba had the better p4p year in 2000 for me. Coleman's wins aren't all that amazing considering size of opponent and style match-up. Satake was debuting and ended up with a 1-8-1 record, Shoji was undersized, Fujita's corner threw in the towel essentially immediately. Igor was his only really good win.

Saku had Mezger, Royce, Ritch, Renzo and Royler. And he essentially fought Igor to the draw and his corner threw in the towel when the judges demanded an over-time round.

Royler was not in 2000. And Royce had 1 fight in 5 years before their fight.

yeah, meant Ryan, who is a better MMA win anyway. Damn Gracies R Us.

Albion_Oakley wrote:Nah I'm just not having it. definate submission. if you wanna be that pedantic why did royce even have corner men, or why did his cornermen even bring a towel?

the_king wrote:all fighters have cornermen they are just never used mate.

Albion_Oakley wrote:I think he meant they rarely throw in the towel. In fact the 2 times I remember seeing it are both Royce fights, the other being his sub loss to Harold Howard

Anfields5thKing wrote:

Albion_Oakley wrote:I think he meant they rarely throw in the towel. In fact the 2 times I remember seeing it are both Royce fights, the other being his sub loss to Harold Howard

BJ Penn vs GSP??

Anfields5thKing wrote:

sunthunder wrote:

Anfields5thKing wrote:

manschesthair_utd wrote:by the way Anfield, its not really relevant that Frank Shamrock would have beaten Sakurai, since although Shamrock has since fought at middleweight, at the time he was heavyweight and light heavyweight.

same goes for Coleman and Sakuraba.
this is p4p #1 not absolute #1


edit: Saku beat Royce, REALLY.
no question.

At the time Saku fought at all weight classes and could have fought Coleman. IMO Coleman would have destroyed him. Same goes for Shamrock. When judging P4P i base it on if both fighters were in the same weight class who would win. For me, Shamrock was also 185-190 and not all that much bigger than Sakurai and would have beaten him.

I don't know, Sakurai is a lightweight who doesn't like to cut, Shamrock is a middleweight. If they were the same size, Sakurai would beat Shamrock imo.

Frank is an MW who doesn't cut. He could make 170. I think he'd have smashed him then, when he was beating Tito, and he'd smash him now when they're both over the hill.

Anfields5thKing wrote:The Gracie's only threw the towel in physically because they couldn't speak Japanese and the referee didn't speak Brazilian or English.

Albion_Oakley wrote:

Anfields5thKing wrote:The Gracie's only threw the towel in physically because they couldn't speak Japanese and the referee didn't speak Brazilian or English.

Nobody speaks Brazilian

manschesthair_utd wrote:

Anfields5thKing wrote:

sunthunder wrote:

Anfields5thKing wrote:

manschesthair_utd wrote:by the way Anfield, its not really relevant that Frank Shamrock would have beaten Sakurai, since although Shamrock has since fought at middleweight, at the time he was heavyweight and light heavyweight.

same goes for Coleman and Sakuraba.
this is p4p #1 not absolute #1


edit: Saku beat Royce, REALLY.
no question.

At the time Saku fought at all weight classes and could have fought Coleman. IMO Coleman would have destroyed him. Same goes for Shamrock. When judging P4P i base it on if both fighters were in the same weight class who would win. For me, Shamrock was also 185-190 and not all that much bigger than Sakurai and would have beaten him.

I don't know, Sakurai is a lightweight who doesn't like to cut, Shamrock is a middleweight. If they were the same size, Sakurai would beat Shamrock imo.

Frank is an MW who doesn't cut. He could make 170. I think he'd have smashed him then, when he was beating Tito, and he'd smash him now when they're both over the hill.

Frank peaked at 200 lbs, and his lowest has been 179 lbs.
Mach is a very very small welterweight today, and has been down to LW, not sure what the shooto weight division was at the time.


firstly, its the corner who decides to throw in the towel, not the fighter, distinguishing it from a submission.
its just as legit as any doctor stoppage, or referee stoppage, or submission.
he beat him until he could not continue.