The Legends, when to retire?

After Penn and Shogun lost ive been looking into some of the sports legends, when they retired and when some of the ageing legends should hang the gloves up.

Fedor: Retired at 35. 3 fight winning streak against Mid level oponents exactly 2 years since he lost the top spot at Hw.

For his legacy its 50/50 wether he did the right thing, Most called for Retirement after the Bigfoot fight, so was he right to fight on and go 3-1 or would you have liked him to retire on a loss to bigfoot?

Liddell: Retired at 40. 3 fight loosing spree again top flight competition. Had dropped off top spot approx 3 years prior to retirement

For his Legacy it would have been better for him to retire after the Wand fight id say. It would have been a huge high but Liddell was the man at 205 for a long time and his skills were still enough to hang with the best. I understand him fighting on against the best, Shogun and Evans were as good as it got but his chin was gone by then. He fought too long in terms of Legacy id say it hurt him a bit but those who watched the figth will remember he was winning against both Rich and Evans.

Couture: Retired at 47. 1 fight loosing spree against top competition, prior to that had been handed a few easy fights and bios decisions. Was never really top of any devision leading to retirement.

Coutures legacy was never built on being the best in any devision. Its the big fights where he was overmatched and seen as an old underdog. UFC rewarded him by giving him lesser opponents, Vera who beat him in everyone but the judges eyes, Tony who was a pushover and Coleman and guy his age who gassed hard after the cut... I like this, and Old guy who wants to fight on can be rewarded with marketable fights against lesser guys. After squash matches gave him confidence he tried to fight the best and got shown his true standing when Machida kicked his teeth out and he retired. IMO Randy went out just as he should have.

Tito: Retired at 37. 3 fight loosing spree... but had only 1 win in 6 years and 9 fights. Tito was competitive in a few losses but with injuries and age he seemed to have lost a step. Probabally wasnt top ranked in a decade.

Tito had a terrible run at the end of his career, his "Prime" was probabally when he was beating Shamrock down. Once Randy and Chuck came along he was always going to be 2nd best. I sort of admire Tito for fighting on, After all he drew with Evans and got a SD against Forrest who were top of the food chain. Infact he went the distance and even threatened a sub against Machida. Tito while ranked still looked good. IMO after the Bader fight was the time to retire on a high.... as much as I dont like Tito I feel bad he lost that decision to HGH Forrest.

Frank Shamrock: Retired at 37 after 2 losses. Hadnt been on top of the MMA world for a decade

Frank did it right, what more can a guy do he fought a handfull of times against credible guys and lost to some of the best. Retired gracefully at a good age.
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So looking at the guy the call for retirement is going up for...

Wanderlei Silva: 36 Years old, Has taken more losses than wins in UFC, a few good wins, the likes of Le, Bisping but his Chin has gone the way of Liddells and he has taken some bad KO losses. IMO if he looses to Stann he is going to ruin his legacy further by fighting on, If he wins Retirement could still be an option. If he does fight on I think he needs to relise what level he is on and go the way of Couture and be given favorable matchups. If he retired win loose or draw against Stann I dont think anyone would complain and id say with a loss Dana will be pushing for it.

Shogun Rua: 31 years old, top 6 ranked, losses to Gus and Hendo in title eliminators and Jones in a title fight. He is still top level but it seems there is talk of retirement. He is 5-5 in the UFC and still ahead of a lot of big names he is yet to fight. I dont see a case for him retiring even if he is on the enevitable slide that all fighters face. Shogun has a trilogy with Machida left to complete, has never faced other top contenders in Glover, Evans, Sonnen and Davis etc.. Shogun might not be a title contender but its not like anyone else is nipping on Jones' heels. I think people need a little perspective on the Lhw devision if they call for his retirement.


PJ Penn: 34 years old (remember smaller guys dont age as well in combat sports) 2 fight lossing spress and only 1 win in 6 fights. Its time to retire for Penn. He is sorta in the Tito boat where he can hang with good guys but his win loss ratio is looking terrible. He should have called time on his carrer after the Hughes fight IMO. I dont see him fighting on but if he does id like to see to be a faded star or a nobody to give him a last win. Renzo Gracie maby? Who knows. As with Wand its a final squash match to go out on a high or retirement in my eyes.

Big Nog: 36 years old, 5-3 in the UFC and won the title since coming to the UFC. Nog has only lost to Cain and Mir (and was very close to being 1-1 with Mir) Heavies have the latest prime so he could get a couple more years, he is fighting Werdum next and if he wins that he is top 5 in the world again... MAby too early to call for retirement when there are a lot of winable fights though if he takes another bad KO or 2 id like to see him retire. IMO If Nog did beat Werdum, it would put him in the title mix, say he beat Cain or Overeem (if Junior wasnt champ) he could possibly surpass Fedor. There is a lot of the line and for a man who is winning I find it supprising people call for his retirement now.

Of the 4 for me Wand and BJ retiring ASAP should happen but Nog and Shogun being highly ranked should fight on. Anyone else?
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I think 2 big factors 1. Wether the fighters health is at risk, when you look at Chuck and Wandy getting laid out you want them to retire when they are still healthy. And 2. Wether they want to go out on a high or wether they need a loss to tell them they are past it.

What do you all think? It there a best way to retire? Should a fighter do it on a loss or a win?

Great article Ben, pretty much agree with everything you say.

Certainly think BJ has got to quit now or at the very least drop back to LW.

One thing mate and it might sound picky but it's lose and losing not loose and loosing. Sorry bud

Good read but I do agree on Penn he looks like the shell of the fighter he once was they could give hima gimme I suppose but retirement might be the best option.

I still don't agree on Shogun mate I loved Shogun of old the speed, the timing and his extensive arsenal was always magical to watch back in the day but Today's Shogun is a slow predictable plodder I really have this feeling he turn in to the MMA version of Roy Jones If he carries on. The speeds gone the reflexes have gone I just got a feeling he's gonna get hurt. I keep having this nightmare of a thought that someone like Joey Beltran is gonna spark him out one day he's just so easy to hit.

Admittedly they are all past there best,but from a selfish fans point of view,I still enjoy watching them all fight and if they all continue fighting,I for one will still definitely pay to watch them.

None are the dominant force they once were,and are now at a level where against some fighters,you would once give no chance to win,can win,but even in their loses,I've enjoyed the fights and will continue watching as long as they are still in the sport.

I mean I'll still watch Arlovski,Boroni,Arona,Filho and many other former top fighters of yester year,even though they are nowhere near the fighter that they were of years past.

Shogun vs Rumble if he comes back or Mousasi in the UFC?

Load of good fights to see him in against lower ranked guys. Let him go out like mmost others have done with a bit of a step down and giving up and comers a chance.

Rashad vs Nog winner maby?

Lots of good fights for him still. A few more losses before he should consider calling it a day I reckon. He isnt in danger of loosing a legacy he was Pride Tournament winner and UFC champ

Of if not to promote a young contender what about someone older and still relevant?

Shogun vs Nog II (36) - rematch of a fight of the year?

Shogun vs Forrest III (33) - Rubbermatch. MMA has scores that need to be settled, if both are coming to the end of theirs why not?

Shogun vs Sonnen (35) - If Sonnen looses to Bones it leaves him in a situation where he cant beat the champ much like Shogun, why not let these guys fight, if Sonnen is to stay high level Shogun is a name he would want to fight.

Shogun vs Evans (33) - Was supposed to happen before, If Evans looses to Nog it could happen. Evans could have a wait even if he wins cause Gus and Machida vs Hendo winner will be ahead.

Shogun vs Machida III (34)- Again why not have a rubbermatch if Machida lost to Hendo

Shogun vs Hendo (42) II - The last one was fight of the year. If Hendo looses to Machida we could see it.

Shogun vs Glover (33) - Glover is older too, Beating Rampage wont earn him a shot so Shogun is the next logical step up from there.

There are 7 fights. Let him take some of them, stay around untill there are more guys Gus and Jones age at the top. Its an ageing devision and they cant afford to loose a top 10 guy just over 30 right now.

Apart from Forrest, and maybe Nog, Shogun loses all of those fights.

Anfields5thKing wrote:Apart from Forrest, and maybe Nog, Shogun loses all of those fights.

Agree Forrest is likely the only given but Nog has looked amazing at some points, its hard to gage where he stands because he has been out a while but in my eyes he is better than his rankings suggest and I dare say could take the fight to Shogun on the feet as his footwork is better. Id give Nog a better shot than most bookies I reckon, maby even 50/50.

Say Machida shools Hendo, would you still be convinced Shogun couldnt win a rematch? He landed 19 more strikes, 4 more takedowns and passed 6 more times. At Hendos age and size id honestly back Shogun to win, I think Machida is going to make Hendo look old. Id be backing Shogun to win a rematch especially if its another 5 rounded.

Id back Evans to win big time, Glover probabally too though he is still really untested as top level. Machida id favor too but style wise Shogun matches up well id but Machida at 60/40 favorite, no more.

Sonnen would loose, I know youll never give this a tought but striking wise Shogun has kicks, heavier hands and an unstoppable chin. Sonnen is good walking forward threatening the TD, but IMO he would walk into a big strike and Shogun would controll the distance with kicks and close it with leaping hooks easily. I reckon Shogun would hurt Sonnen bad standing and his grappling would stop Sonnen blanketing him by threatenong with subs as well as having severley underrated wrestling. Style wise Shogun is a bad bad fight for Sonnen IMO id put him as 60/40 favorite over Sonnen.

Forrest - win
Sonnen - win
Hendo - win
Machida - loose
glover - loose
evans - loose
Nog - 50/50

In my eyes he would win as maby as loose.

Those are compelling fights purely from a fans perspective, but I just don't think it's worth it for a fighter of Shogun's level to be sticking around when he blatantly won't be in the race for a title. Wouldn't mind if he had a retirement fight against Rogerio or something, but I'd much rather he call it quits.

To be honest, I think a lot of the pride old guard ended up carrying on longer than they otherwise would have because of the decline of Japanese MMA and the emergence of the UFC's dominance. I think the desire to imprint themselves on the new growing audience, and the mixed success they had, was an added incentive to continue fighting. Nogueira in particular said the first Mir fight delayed his retirement. I think had Pride still been alive and doing just as well, Nogueira, Wanderlei, Cro Cop, Fedor etc might have retired a few years ago.

I think once I would have agreed that there was still value in these guys fighting if they are still competitive with good fighters, but now I'd just rather true great championship level fighters retire if they aren't genuinely competing for titles any more. Fighting on a bit can work, but there's a really sharp point of decline. I didn't object to Liddell having a war with a game Wanderlei, but very soon after that he was getting knocked out cold. Maybe in some cases there are exceptions, if a fighter hasn't taken much damage over their careers, or there's a change of weight class involved.

The same would happen with Shogun. He might go on and have some good fights where he still looks game, but the point will soon race up where he gets waxed badly. This exact thing is about to happen to Wanderlei against Stann.

Sun are you of Anfields thinking all but Forrest and maby Nog would win? Maby im over rating him like I do Wanderlei but he KO'd Machida 2 years ago and I think Machida is the 2nd best guy in that devision. I think if he is going to go on a Wanderlei like slide lets see it, Lets see Bader beat him then we know he is done, lets see him struggle in a rubbermatch with Forrest perhaps.

Did you think Hendo decisivley beat him?

Too many calls for such a young guy to retire. He has said no to a 185lbs a few times but who knows. Do you think he could be a force at 185 when Anderson is gone?

rudeboyben84 wrote:Sun are you of Anfields thinking all but Forrest and maby Nog would win? Maby im over rating him like I do Wanderlei but he KO'd Machida 2 years ago and I think Machida is the 2nd best guy in that devision. I think if he is going to go on a Wanderlei like slide lets see it, Lets see Bader beat him then we know he is done, lets see him struggle in a rubbermatch with Forrest perhaps.

Did you think Hendo decisivley beat him?

Too many calls for such a young guy to retire. He has said no to a 185lbs a few times but who knows. Do you think he could be a force at 185 when Anderson is gone?

I think Shogun loses most of the fights you listed. He can beat Forrest, Rogerio and Henderson, don't like his chances at all against Machida and Rashad, and would feel fairly safe in picking guys like Davis and Glover against him.

The thing to remember is that every time Shogun fights now, it's like watching Shogun at -5% ability from his last fight. If he rematched Hendo, it's not the same Shogun, it's Shogun with the cumulative damage of three fairly physical fights added on to that. Even though their first fight should have been a draw in my opinion, I probably feel less confident in Shogun if they rematched than I do Henderson.

I actually think the second Machida fight could have gone very differently. Machida was winning the round (if only on the basis of his takedowns) and Shogun had blown his knee out defending a trip. If Machida hadn't become uncharacteristically aggressive, and had made it out of the first round, he could easily have won that fight.

If he could make weight and maintain his cardio, Shogun could be a title contender at middleweight. That is such a massive "if" though seeing how it seems impossible for him to maintain his stamina at 205, no matter how good a camp he supposedly has.

rudeboyben84 wrote:

Anfields5thKing wrote:Apart from Forrest, and maybe Nog, Shogun loses all of those fights.

Agree Forrest is likely the only given but Nog has looked amazing at some points, its hard to gage where he stands because he has been out a while but in my eyes he is better than his rankings suggest and I dare say could take the fight to Shogun on the feet as his footwork is better. Id give Nog a better shot than most bookies I reckon, maby even 50/50.

Say Machida shools Hendo, would you still be convinced Shogun couldnt win a rematch? He landed 19 more strikes, 4 more takedowns and passed 6 more times. At Hendos age and size id honestly back Shogun to win, I think Machida is going to make Hendo look old. Id be backing Shogun to win a rematch especially if its another 5 rounded.

Id back Evans to win big time, Glover probabally too though he is still really untested as top level. Machida id favor too but style wise Shogun matches up well id but Machida at 60/40 favorite, no more.

Sonnen would loose, I know youll never give this a tought but striking wise Shogun has kicks, heavier hands and an unstoppable chin. Sonnen is good walking forward threatening the TD, but IMO he would walk into a big strike and Shogun would controll the distance with kicks and close it with leaping hooks easily. I reckon Shogun would hurt Sonnen bad standing and his grappling would stop Sonnen blanketing him by threatenong with subs as well as having severley underrated wrestling. Style wise Shogun is a bad bad fight for Sonnen IMO id put him as 60/40 favorite over Sonnen.

Forrest - win
Sonnen - win
Hendo - win
Machida - loose
glover - loose
evans - loose
Nog - 50/50

In my eyes he would win as maby as loose.

He landed extra strikes because of that last round when Hendo was gassed. Hendo beat the piss out of him for 3 and a half rounds, I'd definitely back him to do it again. Machida-Hendo has no bearing on it because Shogun can't fight the same way Machida does. Machida won't stand still and let Hendo hit him, Shogun will.

Sonnen would take him down and keep him down. As long as he doesn't make a mistake, he'd win the fight IMO. His cardio and pressure would be too much for Shogun.

rudeboyben84 wrote:Sun are you of Anfields thinking all but Forrest and maby Nog would win? Maby im over rating him like I do Wanderlei but he KO'd Machida 2 years ago and I think Machida is the 2nd best guy in that devision. I think if he is going to go on a Wanderlei like slide lets see it, Lets see Bader beat him then we know he is done, lets see him struggle in a rubbermatch with Forrest perhaps.

Did you think Hendo decisivley beat him?

Too many calls for such a young guy to retire. He has said no to a 185lbs a few times but who knows. Do you think he could be a force at 185 when Anderson is gone?

His age has fuck all to do with anything Ben. You're clinging to that like it matters, it doesn't. Injuries and asskickings have ended him.

Weidman would make bits of him at 185, not that he could even get to 185 anyway.

Anfield, im expecting Machida to run rings round Hendo and make him look bad. Your right it doesnt have anything to do with Shogun/Hendo but id back Shogun to win a rematch.

Id agree Hendo won the 1st 3 rounds, but he lost the last 2 and one a clear 10-8 that fight was a draw. This was a clear example of a fighter winning because Judges dont give 10-8's even in a round where one guy didnt land 1 significant strike and took near 8 while spending a round on his back. Hendo got the nod because of bad MMA scoring, If Shogun is the number 2 contenders level retirement talk is far to quick and he still has an unsettled score with Hendo in a rematch everyone wants to see.

Should Hendo retire if Machida beats him?

Im sticking to my guns, people writing Shogun off too quick. Too much emphasis on these injuries. I think a lot of it is that the doesnt train with top MMA figthers either. Happened to Rampage when he went to Wolfslair, great fighers skills get dull when they dont have quality sparing/trainining partners.

Im sure we will see him fight again, maby ill get proved wrong and he will plod his way to a loss with a low ranked fighter but untill then I dont see a need for a top 10 ranked guy to retire.

Why retire a fighter who has still got great fights with people similar level?

Chuck should have retired after losing to Keith Jardine!!

The last 3 Knockouts he had were really brutal and the problem with Shogun is that he has a great chin so is prob taking more and more damage - he looks really flat footed and slow even in the Vera fight,

Clear im in the Minority, its probabally a Wand like case where when your a big fan of someone you will always hope for a return to glory...

Shogun wont retire though, he will fight again. Only question is who?

I think Glover should get him if he gets by Rampage.