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    Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

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    rudeboyben84
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:08 pm

    manschesthair_utd wrote:ben why did you leave out top 4 rank Timmeh and #2 rank Arlovski?

    Because they are good wins, they were both highly ranked and genuine Heavies. Im not trying to discredit everything Fedor did, I could point out how badly their careers have gone after this fight and say Fedor beat them when they were on the slide but they were ranked at the time.

    If you look at who was ranked and at their Peak a few of Fedors wins are as good as they seem, Coleman and Randleman were big ones.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:23 pm

    Anfields5thKing wrote:
    rudeboyben84 wrote:Though it was worth breaking down the big fights to shatter the Fedor Myth and show Anderson as the better fighter... They both have similar amounts of big wins so when they beat these big name fighters has to be looked into

    Nog twice is Fedor's greatest achievement no doubt. Both fights were an incredible achievement as Nog only had one other career loss (to Hendo)

    For comparison Anderson beat Rich Franklin twice when he was number 1 ranked (same as Nog was 1st time) and then number 2 ranked (same as Nog in the rematch) Franklins only other loss being to Machida so very similar to the Nog wins.

    So thats Fedor's career achievement nearly matched already, Whos next? Crocop? Hendo was a bigger win than that without a shaddow of doubt.

    Look at other ones of Fedors wins too,

    Arona a Lhw - who would have won under unified rules or Pride rules and still to this day its considered controversial by some

    Babalu a Lhw would could make Mw and has fought at 195lbs

    Lindland is a Mw

    Randleman while a big name again was well past his best

    Coleman too, he was on the wrong side of 40.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    Fedor is what he is, the best Hw ever but when you go through his record with a fine toothcombe he doesnt stack up to Anderson and I dare say if you looked at their computerised stats, accuracy etc.. Anderson would overshaddow him in nearly every aspect of the game.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    You could try to break Andersons record down as I have Fedors but they guys he has been fighting (apart from Irvin) are all genuine number 1 contenders,

    Okami - in his Prime, Number 1 contender

    Belfort - Some say fast tracked but top 5 ranked by most

    Sonnen - In his Prime, Number 1 contender

    Maia - 1 career loss to Marquardt, beat Sonnen the fight before

    Forrest - *Coming off a loss in a title figth, but a Former Lhw champ who had beaten Rampage and Shogun prior to the fights before he lost his title.

    Leites - Legit contender with win over Nate, only 1 career loss

    Cote - Again legit contender 5 fight spree to earn shot.

    Irvin - Is what he is then a 14-4 Lhw banger, a decent enough test for Anderson testing the waters, on a 2 fight winning spree, certainly better than a lot of the Cans Fedor was Fed while Pride champ.

    Hendo - KO'd Fedor, that is all

    Franklin - Future Hof'er

    Marquardt - number 1 contender in his prime

    Luter - number 1 condender in his prime

    Franklin - Future Hof'er

    Leben - a 15-1 KO artist, this was a number 1 contender fight for him too

    ---------------------------------

    Andersons current UFC run is unbelievable, I dont even have to go back and dig up old wins over legends at the start of Andersons career. Anderson got the title and defended it time and time again against Legit opposition, Fedors legendary streak he mustered a total of 3 times, Nog, Crocop and Hunt...

    There were some tough fights again old lenends but a lot of Cans and untested fighters, Zulu, Kohsaka, Ogawa, Goodridge, dont forget 0-1 Nagata or 4-2 Valavičius... Fedor was fed Cans in his prime as champ to bulk out his record. He didnt face half the fighters in their primes that were legit threats that Anderson did.

    Id love someone to bring up their records and make a propper case for Fedor based on who they beat... I dont see them as equal.

    A few small things.

    Leben vs Anderson wasn't a number 1 contender fight. Leben was fed to Anderson to give him a good entrance into the UFC and then a vote took place on the UFC website the day after the fight to pick an opponent for Franklin. Anderson won the vote on the back of people who had no idea who he was 24 hours previously being impressed by him beating Leben.

    Luther wasn't a number 1 contender, he beat a bunch of has-beens on TUF to get a shot and then missed weight and gassed after winning the first round.

    Nate the Grease got his title shot off the back of beating Dean Lister. Let's not pretend he got it because he was doing anything impressive or because he was any good. He got it because the MW division in the UFC was absolute dogshit up until Dan Henderson arrived over.

    Irvin is and was crap.

    Cote was a legit contender based on his run of wins, but let's not pretend he was any good? Same with Leites.

    Belfort was top 5 ranked? Based on what? Beating Terry Martin and a past it Matt Lindland? They were his only 2 fights at 185 in his entire career prior to Anderson. If he was ranked at all it was because the division is so thin. A good win for Anderson, but Vitor didn't deserve a title shot.

    Franklin, Henderson, Forrest, Sonnen, Belfort. Those are Anderson's big wins against fighters who actually did something note worthy in a major organization. Maia and Okami aren't top level fighters but they are definitely in the upper grouping of the second group.

    Arona, Nog, CroCop, Timmeh and Arlovski are Fedor's big 5. When compared to Anderson's they're more impressive.

    He also beat Coleman, and Randleman who are at least as good on the resume as Maia and Okami. And he beat Schilt, Hunt, Herring who was top 10(gave him the beating of his life) etc. There's also the small matter of a near 10 ten unbeaten run. Oh, and the fact that the vast majority of his opponents were a lot bigger than him, whereas Anderson fought guys who were, for the vast majority, smaller than him.

    Oh and attempting to compare Franklin to Nog is ridiculous. Nog was a far better fighter than Rich ever was.


    Coleman and Randleman arent as good wins as Maia and Okami, they are more famous (because the heavier fighters are more recognisable names) but Maia and Okami were ranked highly at the time, Coleman and Randleman were well past their best.

    Beating Genuine contenders like Okami means far more than beating a guy on the wrong side of 40 who was years past his best.

    I didnt mention all Fedors wins but was Beating a green Arona that much better than beating a 20 fight unbeaten Mach Sakurai? Line up all the guys you condiser a good win. What about Carlos Newton who had beat Pele and Pat Miletich? Honestly mate line up big wins, I think Anderson will have about 17 and Fedor 14.

    There is no way Fedor has beat More high quality opposition than Anderson and thats how we should judge people, on who you beat,Not 10 years Runs against guys 2 devisions below you, Pro Wrestlers, Disabled people etc.. Anderson could go 10 years if you had of bulked those Title fights out with Fedor type opposition.

    Once Anderson hit his peak he stayed champ and wherever possible he fought the toughest opponents. Fedor hit his peak and was still given multiple total missmatches which bulk that record out.

    Fedor is number 2 p4p for me, Im sure if you lined up their records side by side you would see what im seeing, more big wins = a better figther.

    If you can see that what would you want Anderson to do to overtake Fedor? A 2nd win over Sonnen? 2 or 3 more defences? Surely if you really do see Fedor as better you have to think Anderson is well on his way to overtaking him?
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    rudeboyben84
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:41 pm

    Also if Rich might not be quite as big a win as Nog, though the number 2 Mw ever vs the Number 2 Hw ever isnt a bad comparison beating Hendo is better than beating Nog.

    Hendo is 1-1 with Big Nog and KO'd Fedor so that 1 win is bigger than any of Fedor's wins.

    They only have 1 common opponent, Anderson Finished him, Fedor got finished by him. Big Difference.

    So Silva has a bigger career win, More quality career wins and more qualty wins back to back than at any point of Fedors career.
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    poz
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  poz on Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:23 pm


    Ben,you might well be right in terms of achievements. Surely the GOAT argument should encompass
    much more than that I think. After the first few UFC's I tuned out, too violent and mismatched for me. I would say Fedor alone drew me back in. A relatively small man, (almost) fat and bald fighting people of all shapes and sizes! Say what you want about Hong Man Choi, but he is fucking enormous, would you wanna fight him? Fedor just got on with the job!
    The Randleman slam, the Arlovski ko, the electrocution dance he did when rocked (Arona?).
    People say he ducked the UFC, so what? He obviously made enough money in pride and with M-1 he could say no, unless it was on his terms, which it wasn't (and in the last few years, I'm glad for him).
    3 official losses, number one he dives into Werdum's guard, not the cleverest thing to do. Silva is a doctors stoppage, and Hendo can catch anyone!
    Anderson is a great fighter, but the difference for me, a relative layman, is how they carry themselves, humble and respectful Fedor, or Anderson? I'm thinking in most part of the Maia fight.
    I guess you could say I'm a Fedor man Very Happy
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  payneNglory1 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:42 pm

    Fujita

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    poz
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  poz on Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:49 pm

    payneNglory1 wrote:Fujita


    Cheers Payne, made me smile! Fedor was rocking, never beat the Brock breakdance though!
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  manschesthair_utd on Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:13 pm

    never seen someone rocked so badly and not go down.

    amazing how he went an entire career without being dropped...and before you say, he was on all fours when Hendo cracked him Twisted Evil
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  payneNglory1 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:31 pm

    without a doubt,it was an incredible recovery,his legs were gone.

    he didn't go his whole career with out being dropped at all,he got dropped by Strikeforce Razz
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  sunthunder on Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:14 pm

    rudeboyben84 wrote:Also if Rich might not be quite as big a win as Nog, though the number 2 Mw ever vs the Number 2 Hw ever isnt a bad comparison beating Hendo is better than beating Nog.

    Hendo is 1-1 with Big Nog and KO'd Fedor so that 1 win is bigger than any of Fedor's wins.

    They only have 1 common opponent, Anderson Finished him, Fedor got finished by him. Big Difference.

    So Silva has a bigger career win, More quality career wins and more qualty wins back to back than at any point of Fedors career.

    Nogueira is more than the second best heavyweight of all time, he's one of the maybe top 4 fighters ever, and Fedor smashed him twice. He comes behind only GSP and Anderson for victories over top 10 opponents. And he has no losses to sub par opposition. He was never smashed by Serra, or subbed by Takase. Nogueira's a far better win than Henderson, irrespective of the highly questionable "loss" in their first fight. He never got clowned by Misaki, or lost to Shields, or got gifts against Kondo, Newton and Bustamante.

    Also if you're picking out Arlovski and Sylvia as being on slides when they fought Fedor, surely Fedor was on a slide when he fought Henderson?



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    Anfields5thKing
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:15 am

    rudeboyben84 wrote:
    Anfields5thKing wrote:Oh and just on this:

    "Arona a Lhw - who would have won under unified rules or Pride rules and still to this day its considered controversial by some

    Babalu a Lhw would could make Mw and has fought at 195lbs

    Lindland is a Mw
    "


    Fedor is smaller than Arona and Lindland. He just isn't arsed cutting weight. He could easily make 185 if he dieted, he could probably make 170 if he went on the Jon Jones diet of cowardliness.

    Catch yourself on mate, Fedor could make 170lbs? Look at him vs Mw's again. He was massive compared to Hendo his frame was so much bigger, Lindland was far far smaller looking too. I accept Fedor could make 205 but I dont even think he could make 185 let alone 170lbs.

    Again I think you and others use the Fact Fedor fought at Hw has a plus to his career. I dont buy that, you are what weight class you fight in, Fedor is a 230lbs Heavy, Nog, Crocop etc.. there are other great Hw's his size so I wouldnt get caught up on his size because we cant assume he would have been better at 205 or looking like James Irvin trying to make 185.


    Fedor is tiny for a HW, and he'd be a small LHW. Lindland was just as big as him, Henderson is just as big as him and Arona was bigger than you. Fedor is flappy, Henderson is ripped. Fedor looks bigger but Hendo's frame is easily as big. Hendo could have made 170 once upon a time.

    You know right well that Fedor would be better at 205. You think someone with his level of skill in all areas, plus his power which would been even more potent at 205 wouldn't haven't dominated? You're either trying to back up your own argument, or you're not actually Ben Neeson.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:18 am

    rudeboyben84 wrote:Also if Rich might not be quite as big a win as Nog, though the number 2 Mw ever vs the Number 2 Hw ever isnt a bad comparison beating Hendo is better than beating Nog.

    Hendo is 1-1 with Big Nog and KO'd Fedor so that 1 win is bigger than any of Fedor's wins.

    They only have 1 common opponent, Anderson Finished him, Fedor got finished by him. Big Difference.

    So Silva has a bigger career win, More quality career wins and more qualty wins back to back than at any point of Fedors career.

    Doesn't have a bigger career win. Prime Nog vs Hendo messing up a weight cut and gassing after easily winning the first round. Not a contest.

    Fedor as the better wins.

    And comparing Franklin to Nog is like comparing Forrest Griffin to Fedor.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:30 am

    rudeboyben84 wrote:
    manschesthair_utd wrote:ben why did you leave out top 4 rank Timmeh and #2 rank Arlovski?

    Because they are good wins, they were both highly ranked and genuine Heavies. Im not trying to discredit everything Fedor did, I could point out how badly their careers have gone after this fight and say Fedor beat them when they were on the slide but they were ranked at the time.

    If you look at who was ranked and at their Peak a few of Fedors wins are as good as they seem, Coleman and Randleman were big ones.

    Sylvia had just kicked the tar out of Nog for 10 minutes before making a stupid mistake and Arlovski was in the form of his life going into the Fedor fight and an awful lot of people thought he would beat Fedor.

    Comical to claim you can point at Fedor's wins and then point out what happened to them afterwards, could do the exact same to many of Anderson's wins.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:46 pm

    Ill admit im totally wrong to suggest AA and Sylvia were anything but great wins. And wins were Fedor looked unbelievable. The Sylvia ones is still the fight id show to a UFC loving mate to show them who Fedor is (Well maby the Zulu and Goodridge Whoopings too!)

    I think what Ive done is dismissed some of Fedors wins because the fighter went downhill after or finished his career badly making the win seem like less now. Andersons big wins are more recent so are going to look better. Schilt, people wouldnt rate him in MMA now, he was top 5 back then!! Goodridge was just about hanging on to a top 10 spot. Greats can only be judged what they did in their own era I suppose and Fedors peak was before Andersons despite the similar career length and age.

    Looking at who they beat that was top 10 and top 5 to get an Idea of what they have acomplished in the sport.


    2X Nog - 5
    Arlovski - 5
    Schilt top 5
    Crocop - 5
    2X Coleman - 5/10
    Sylvia - 10
    Hunt - 10
    Rogers - 10
    Goodrigde - 10
    Babalu top - 10
    Arona top - 10
    RANDLEMAN - 10

    2X Franklin - 5
    Mach Sakurai - 5
    Okami - 5
    Sonnen - 5
    Forrest - 5
    Hendo - 5
    Horn - 5
    Newton - 5
    Maia - 10
    Leites - 10
    Belfort - 10
    Marquardt - 10

    Thats as close and fair a rankings as I could find some sites would disagree but thats why I didnt give exact rankings I left it 5 or 10.

    So on paper Fedor has 14 top 10 ranked wins. Anderson has 13.

    Anderson has 9 top 5 ranked wins to Fedors 6.

    Those probabally swing things in Andersons favor, But you have to looked at losses I suppose and Andersons all be it a long time ago are still less forgivable, he lost to Takase (5-7-1) a non ranked fighter after he was himself a top 10 guy, Chonan win could be compared to the Werdum win in a crazy Sub no one saw coming and they were comparible fighters. Okami loss is close enough to Fedors cut because you can dismiss them if your a fan.

    Luiz Azeredo who beat Anderson at the start of his career is comparible to Fedor loosing to Hendo in that neither was at their Peak. Hendo is top 5 p4p ever and Azeredo while a bit of a bad ass never really made it to those levels.

    Lads when I said I though Anderson was better it was splitting hairs. I think its much more even after really digging into it, I say that the Sonnen fight might well settle things, because if Anderson adds another top 5 win to his record, (And Sonnen is a legit number 2 as well) it has to make him better. What would it take for everyone calling Fedor?
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Once Mohawked Pete on Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:36 pm

    TBH Ben, I am very biased towards Fedor, but, I can understand how some would rate Anderson as having a better record, for me, should he beat Sonnen (convincingly), there wouldn't be a great deal more that he could do to lay claim to being the GOAT, should he move to LHW and have at least one win against a top5 opponent, that would do it for me. I know that a lot have said that we're making too much of Fedor fighting at HW, whilst walking around at a similar weight to most LHWs, but, for me, that is a huge part of what made Fedor so great. I understand why certain fighters want to fight at what they view as their optimum weight, but, I cannot help being more impressed by someone who could have easily fought at LHW (and probably with at least the same level of success, if not more), than someone utilising an obvious size advantage (Jones being a prime example). Do you see Anderson ever stepping out of his comfort zone and fighting at 205 in the UFC Ben?
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:53 pm

    Pete Ive a feeling Anderson will retire in 5 fights or less. Infact I could even see him retiring this weekend if Sonnen beats him convincingly.

    He beat Forrest and it was a 1 sided highligh reel and Forrest was top 5 ranked, only 1 fight removed from loosing his title.

    Rashad Evans said he would love to go to 185 to fight Anderson so Id love to maby see Anderson fight him at 205 or even a catchweight. I think thats a possibility.

    He certainly has to deal with Lombard at this weight, a legit threat. Maby if he beats Sonnen and denfends against Lombard (if he wins) we could see him look to retire with a few Lhw superfights.

    I dont buy Anderson and Fedor being the same size, Anderson was a Ww when he started, he moved up to Mw and has a few Lhw fights but Fedor was always a Hw, he has a massive barrel chest compared to Andersons wirey frame.

    No way in hell Fedor makes 170, watch the Fedor vs Hendo fight again and Fedor's legs and Torso are so much bigger than Hendo. Fedor has beat these bigger guys but you look at his big wins, 220lbs Nog, 220lbs Crocop, Coleman who made Lhw, Randleman who made Lhw, Arona and Babalu who are Lhw's... Fedor beat Sylvia but then again so did Lhw Couture...

    To be the size thing is far far overplayed. Fedor cant get credit for being undersized, being fat is something that can add to a legacy. Its like saying Butterbean would have been a legend if he was thin. Who knows, that their body type and they didnt but the effort into changing the same way some fighters dont put the effort into evolving with the sport or filling holes in their game. Fedors lack of physicality could be seen as a hole in his game.... Like I say we cant juge on what he could have done, we should judge only what they achieved.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Once Mohawked Pete on Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:43 pm

    Understood, to an extent, but I really believe that the reason Fedor fought at HW, is nothing to do with not being bothered to cut weight, more the prestige of fighting at HW. In the same way that Fedor wanted to fight his opponent at their game, as a challenge so to speak. TBH, I don't see Fedor ever making 170 either, but certainly 205 and maybe 185 at a real push. Anderson said once that he walks around at about 220, Fedor surely couldn't have been much more than that (230-240 at a push). I will always 'overplay' the size angle I suppose, but who can forget the first time they saw Fedor? I know that I was overwhelmed by his appearence, and thought, there is no way that a man looking like that, can fight at HW and be succesful.

    With regards to any 'superfights' at LHW, I would love to see someone like Machida or Evans fight Silva, but let's see what adjustments (if any) Silva makes for the Sonnen fight first.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:17 am

    Sylvia was ranked number 4 in the world when Fedor beat him, why is he listed as a 10 rather than a 5?

    Jeremy Horn was not top 5 when Anderson beat him, if he was even ranked top 10 at the time I'd be amazed.

    Means Fedor has 7 top 5 wins and Silva has 8. Newton questionable top 5 at the time although given how ridiculously weak the 170 class was at the time it's possible he was.

    That's another point actually. Anderson has fought in weak weight classes. WW was awful when he was there and he didn't do anything impressive, and MW was awful when he landed in the UFC.

    Anderson's losses are also far worse than Fedor's. Fedor lost three times, to two much bigger guys who are both top end fighters, and one of them was on a swollen in a fight he could well have come back to win. And to Dan Henderson who's an all time great. All of Fedor's losses came when he was in his 30's and on the slide. Anderson lost to Chonan who is and was awful, and is much smaller than him. He lost to Takase who had a losing record and had been beaten by every decent fighter he'd faced. And he lost to Azeredo who's also horrendous.

    Statement about Fedor's chest and legs being much bigger than Henderson's is nonsense. They're carrying more fat. Henderson is the same size as Fedor, possibly a little bit broader but not as tall. Fedor and Anderson are similar sizes, Anderson may even be a bit bigger. Different body types but Anderson is taller, longer limbed and when he walks around at 215-220 he's not carrying nearly as much fat as Fedor.

    With the exception of Forrest and maybe Vitor, Anderson has had a size advantage on all of his opponents, Fedor has had a size advantage on very few.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:55 am

    Anfields5thKing wrote:Sylvia was ranked number 4 in the world when Fedor beat him, why is he listed as a 10 rather than a 5?

    Jeremy Horn was not top 5 when Anderson beat him, if he was even ranked top 10 at the time I'd be amazed.

    Means Fedor has 7 top 5 wins and Silva has 8. Newton questionable top 5 at the time although given how ridiculously weak the 170 class was at the time it's possible he was.

    That's another point actually. Anderson has fought in weak weight classes. WW was awful when he was there and he didn't do anything impressive, and MW was awful when he landed in the UFC.

    Anderson's losses are also far worse than Fedor's. Fedor lost three times, to two much bigger guys who are both top end fighters, and one of them was on a swollen in a fight he could well have come back to win. And to Dan Henderson who's an all time great. All of Fedor's losses came when he was in his 30's and on the slide. Anderson lost to Chonan who is and was awful, and is much smaller than him. He lost to Takase who had a losing record and had been beaten by every decent fighter he'd faced. And he lost to Azeredo who's also horrendous.

    Statement about Fedor's chest and legs being much bigger than Henderson's is nonsense.
    They're carrying more fat. Henderson is the same size as Fedor, possibly a little bit broader but not as tall. Fedor and Anderson are similar sizes, Anderson may even be a bit bigger. Different body types but Anderson is taller, longer limbed and when he walks around at 215-220 he's not carrying nearly as much fat as Fedor.

    With the exception of Forrest and maybe Vitor, Anderson has had a size advantage on all of his opponents, Fedor has had a size advantage on very few.


    Mate Horn was top 5, He was 70-12-5 With wins over Liddell, Sonnen, Forrest and plenty of Hw wins too...

    Sylvia was ranked 11th by Fightmatrix at the time he fought Sylvia, Some websites had him as high as 6th I remember but 4th is a stetch.

    Its a good point about how poor the opposition who beat Anderson compared to Fedor was though. Ill admit that massivley swings this arguement in Fedors favor for me, not so much the size though.

    For me even if Fedor could make 205 or 185 he choose to fight at Hw so we can only judge him on what he did there. Maby it was a stronger weight class but I reckon if we looked at the wins that I didnt list as ranked Anderson would have stronger ones, Cote, Leben, Lee Murray (who might have been top 10 or close to) Jorge Rivera, Alex Stiebling (12-1-1)

    Actually add another top 5 to Andersons list Kato reached the top 5 in Ww after beating Thomas Denny back in 2000.

    Its pretty clear Anderson has better wins nearly twice the top 5 fighters that Fedor has. Although I take the point a top 5 Ww maby doesnt equal a top 10 heavy... I still put it down to Fedor fighting a weight class too heavy and Anderson fighting at Mw which is probabally right for him, this walking around at 220 is a stretch, he is fat at 220 when he is eating McDonalds, its not a weight cut from there. Id be supprosed if he was cutting from much more thatn 200lbs come fight week.

    Its like giving Rashad Evans more credit for fighting at Lhw becase he is a bit undersized. I think he likes havng that explosivness of not feeling drained from a cut. Likewise I think Fedor was a better Hw because he had a speed advantage that he wouldnt have had at Lhw.

    The Losses really make it neck and neck though, Ive Anderson a bit ahead but I understand why people pick Fedor. What would you think it would take for Anderson to take the number 1 spot?

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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:57 am

    Once Mohawked Pete wrote:Understood, to an extent, but I really believe that the reason Fedor fought at HW, is nothing to do with not being bothered to cut weight, more the prestige of fighting at HW. In the same way that Fedor wanted to fight his opponent at their game, as a challenge so to speak. TBH, I don't see Fedor ever making 170 either, but certainly 205 and maybe 185 at a real push. Anderson said once that he walks around at about 220, Fedor surely couldn't have been much more than that (230-240 at a push). I will always 'overplay' the size angle I suppose, but who can forget the first time they saw Fedor? I know that I was overwhelmed by his appearence, and thought, there is no way that a man looking like that, can fight at HW and be succesful.

    With regards to any 'superfights' at LHW, I would love to see someone like Machida or Evans fight Silva, but let's see what adjustments (if any) Silva makes for the Sonnen fight first.

    Machida vs Fedor would have been an epic. Anderson is the fight I think we could all have loved to see at 205. For me Its Liddell, I think if Liddell and Fedor had of fought back in their primes it would have been amazing.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:42 pm

    Looking on FightMetric,

    Strikes landed per minute Anderson leads by a tiny amount at 3.18 to Fedors 3.15.

    Strike Accuracy as you would expect Anderson leads 68% to 52%.

    Strikes Absorbed per minute was a shocker to me, Fedor eats 1 on the button, Anderson gets hit more at 1.35% Less than Machida too.

    Strikes defended they say is the "% of opponents strikes that didnt land", Fedor was 63% Anderson 64% Anderson by a % then?

    Takedowns were a big difference, Fedor with 2.02 and Andserson 0.75 (Thats per 15mins)

    Takedown accuracy was actually in Andersons favor, 78% to 63%. Understandabally Fedor might have needed a couple of attempts to take other heavies down but it shows the rare time Anderson attempts a takedown he has gotten it.

    TDD Fedor had a big lead at 83% to 69%

    Subs attempted (over 15mins) Fedor lead 1.94 to 1.18.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Any supprises? Fedor getting so little strikes landed on him was crazy! Less than Machida or Anderson.

    Still with another win over Sonnen Andersons record just begins to look much better than Fedors for top opponents.

    I reckon Anderson will retire if he looses to Sonnen. Id call Fedor the P4P GOAT time if he does looses against Sonnen I dont think a few more top 5/10 opponents would even out the losses if he had 5.

    Does anyone think Anderson would stick around? A rubbermatch? A fight with Lombard? Move to Lhw? Maby a 2nd fight with Hendo regardless of the outcome of Hendo/Bones. Id like that myself most Ive always wanted Hendo to avenge that fight.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  manschesthair_utd on Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:27 pm

    by all means compare their records, impact etc... but those fightmetric stats are less than meaningless (although interesting!)

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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  kavik2 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:44 pm

    manschesthair_utd wrote:by all means compare their records, impact etc... but those fightmetric stats are less than meaningless (although interesting!)

    Fightmetric stats are meaningless over a whole career at the best of times, even more so when comparing different weights.

    There isnt much between the two of them on career wins, Anderson probably edges that but I have to agree that Anderson has lost to the much poorer fighters.

    Shilt at the time was a big scalp, especially for a small HW to face, Fedor has IMO been on the slide for a few years, he was a lot more explosive in his younger days and maybe the fact that Anderson is peaking around now and Fedor is on the slide will cloud people's opinions.

    If Anderson can beat two or three top LHW's then he might IMO have a case to move up to number 1.

    I dont think Fedor vs Chuck in 2006 would have ended well at all for Chuck IMO Chuck would have struggled against Wandy, Rampage(as seen) and Shogun at that time.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:11 pm

    rudeboyben84 wrote:
    Anfields5thKing wrote:Sylvia was ranked number 4 in the world when Fedor beat him, why is he listed as a 10 rather than a 5?

    Jeremy Horn was not top 5 when Anderson beat him, if he was even ranked top 10 at the time I'd be amazed.

    Means Fedor has 7 top 5 wins and Silva has 8. Newton questionable top 5 at the time although given how ridiculously weak the 170 class was at the time it's possible he was.

    That's another point actually. Anderson has fought in weak weight classes. WW was awful when he was there and he didn't do anything impressive, and MW was awful when he landed in the UFC.

    Anderson's losses are also far worse than Fedor's. Fedor lost three times, to two much bigger guys who are both top end fighters, and one of them was on a swollen in a fight he could well have come back to win. And to Dan Henderson who's an all time great. All of Fedor's losses came when he was in his 30's and on the slide. Anderson lost to Chonan who is and was awful, and is much smaller than him. He lost to Takase who had a losing record and had been beaten by every decent fighter he'd faced. And he lost to Azeredo who's also horrendous.

    Statement about Fedor's chest and legs being much bigger than Henderson's is nonsense.
    They're carrying more fat. Henderson is the same size as Fedor, possibly a little bit broader but not as tall. Fedor and Anderson are similar sizes, Anderson may even be a bit bigger. Different body types but Anderson is taller, longer limbed and when he walks around at 215-220 he's not carrying nearly as much fat as Fedor.

    With the exception of Forrest and maybe Vitor, Anderson has had a size advantage on all of his opponents, Fedor has had a size advantage on very few.


    Mate Horn was top 5, He was 70-12-5 With wins over Liddell, Sonnen, Forrest and plenty of Hw wins too...

    Sylvia was ranked 11th by Fightmatrix at the time he fought Sylvia, Some websites had him as high as 6th I remember but 4th is a stetch.

    Its a good point about how poor the opposition who beat Anderson compared to Fedor was though. Ill admit that massivley swings this arguement in Fedors favor for me, not so much the size though.

    For me even if Fedor could make 205 or 185 he choose to fight at Hw so we can only judge him on what he did there. Maby it was a stronger weight class but I reckon if we looked at the wins that I didnt list as ranked Anderson would have stronger ones, Cote, Leben, Lee Murray (who might have been top 10 or close to) Jorge Rivera, Alex Stiebling (12-1-1)

    Actually add another top 5 to Andersons list Kato reached the top 5 in Ww after beating Thomas Denny back in 2000.

    Its pretty clear Anderson has better wins nearly twice the top 5 fighters that Fedor has. Although I take the point a top 5 Ww maby doesnt equal a top 10 heavy... I still put it down to Fedor fighting a weight class too heavy and Anderson fighting at Mw which is probabally right for him, this walking around at 220 is a stretch, he is fat at 220 when he is eating McDonalds, its not a weight cut from there. Id be supprosed if he was cutting from much more thatn 200lbs come fight week.

    Its like giving Rashad Evans more credit for fighting at Lhw becase he is a bit undersized. I think he likes havng that explosivness of not feeling drained from a cut. Likewise I think Fedor was a better Hw because he had a speed advantage that he wouldnt have had at Lhw.

    The Losses really make it neck and neck though, Ive Anderson a bit ahead but I understand why people pick Fedor. What would you think it would take for Anderson to take the number 1 spot?


    Horn wasn't 5th. He was fighting in tiny organizations and the Anderson fight came in between fights against the mighty Cameron Brown and Kyle Seals. Sonnen and Forrest were nobodies at the time. Forrest was a part time fighter and Sonnen was just a wrestler with a habit of cutting easily. He win against Liddell was 5 years before he fought Anderson. Horn wasn't even top 10 at the time. He had fallen off the radar and was fighting guys who were ranked outside the top 25, same prob weren't even top 100. When he was brought into the UFC a year later to be fed to Liddell who was looking for an ego boost he wasn't ranked top 20 by anyone, so how was he top 5 when he fought Anderson?

    Fedor was 1, Nog was 2, Arlovski was 3 and Sylvia was 4 when they fought. Comical to claim he was ranked 11th. Name the 10 that were ahead of him then.

    Claiming Kato as top 10 is ridiculous. He'd beaten nobody of note by the time you claim he went into the top 10. Top 10 off the back of beating a bunch of bums with losing records? Not so much.

    Anderson has beaten less top 10 opponents and the same amount of top 5 opponents as Fedor.

    Fedor has better wins, Anderson has worse losses.

    It's funny to say that Anderson is fat when walking around at 220. And Fedor is ripped is he?? Not a bit of fat on him at all?

    For Anderson to be better than Fedor? Can't happen. Fedor was just a better fighter. For Anderson to have a better record? He'll have to beat Sonnen tomorrow night and beat at least 2 more top 5 opponents, preferably at 205. If he beat Sonnen, Evans(would have said Machida, but obviously they won't fight) and GSP, then he'd be the GOAT in terms of accomplishments. Unfortunately he's getting smashed tomorrow night.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:59 pm

    Anfield Sylvia was top 5 before Couture beat him, a Loss that dropped him to 8th acording to fightmatrix, By the time he lost to Nog he slipped to 11th.

    Fedor, Crocop, Nog, Barnett, Couture, AA, Werdum, Gonzaga, Herring and Kongo were ranked above him. Youd have a hard job convincing me he should be ranked over those guys.
    ------------------

    Horns nearly had 100 fights before he met Anderson, Draw with Prime Severn at Hw, Yvel at Hw, Loiseau when he was good, Stopped Vernon Whites longest career run at Lhw, 16-2 Lhw Homer Moore, 4-1 Golden glory Hw Chalid Arrab, Fulton (who was good back then, beat Herring etc..) Takase (who beat Anderson soon after), Berger who beat Sonie carter twice.... etc..

    Really Horn was top 5 without a shaddow of doubt when he fought Anderson, even after the Anderson loss moving up to Lhw again he was top 15 in 1 fight... You really underrate how good Horn was it seems.

    Some of the guys Kato beat ended up being bums, fair enough but Ww was a thin devision when he was ranked.

    Lindland was a top 10 Mw I didnt mention him for Fedor did I?

    Anyway I think Anderson will loose tomorrow night too, I just think his record is a big better right now.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  sunthunder on Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:57 pm

    rudeboyben84 wrote:Anfield Sylvia was top 5 before Couture beat him, a Loss that dropped him to 8th acording to fightmatrix, By the time he lost to Nog he slipped to 11th.

    Fedor, Crocop, Nog, Barnett, Couture, AA, Werdum, Gonzaga, Herring and Kongo were ranked above him. Youd have a hard job convincing me he should be ranked over those guys.

    Losing to Couture and Nogueira doesn't drop you out the top 10, especially not bellow guys like Kongo and Herring. Even Couture shouldn't have been ranked by the time Sylvia fought Fedor, he hadn't fought in a year. Most rankings had Sylvia as top 5 before he fought Fedor.

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