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    Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

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    Anfields5thKing
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:12 am

    payneNglory1 wrote:I don't think I've ever claimed JBJ was the GOAT,but I have claimed that if keeps beating top level fighters down like the way he has been,then he'll without a doubt be a serious contender for it.

    and I don't buy the coward fighting below his weight at all,if you make the weight on weigh in day,then I have zero problems with anyone fighting at that weight.
    If you choose not to,then fair be it,but don't expect me to rank you any different to any other fighter fighting in your chosen weight class.

    Fedor chose to fight at HW,so I don't discredit his work ethic or common sense by giving him shit for not getting his arse into gear,getting rid of that belly fat and fighting at LHW,nor do I give him special praise because he chose to stay at HW,he's never hit a scale at 205 or under,so he's a HW,that's what he chose to be and that's how he should be judged.

    Did you have a problem with Hendo fighting at MW,me neither,nor have I ever had a problem with GSP,Aldo,Silva,Sonnen,Tito,Maynard or any other fighters that cut weight successfully to fight at the division below their natural training weight or the weight us fans seem to think we know better than what the fighters themselves choose.

    Why would there be a problem with Hendo fighting at MW? He's a natural MW. He walks around at about 200. None of the fighters you mention are cutting as much weight as Jones, nor are they dieting 365 and doing regular sauna sessions when not in camp just to keep their weight down. Jones is a coward. He's a HW fighting much smaller men.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  payneNglory1 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:46 am

    200 lbs isn't a MW though,it's a LHW.

    We've done this before,% wise lots of fighters cut as much or more weight.

    As I said,if that's what he needs to do to stay at LHW and he can do it successfully and make weight come weigh in time,then I still don't see a problem.

    You weigh in at 205 or under on weigh in day,then you are a LHW.

    Plus the UFC have said they don't want JJ fighting at HW.


    Sun,we'll have to agree to disagree on those fights mate,because I can't agree.I don't think constantly moving left with your hands at chest height,throwing loads of single left jabs and knees from the clinch,is close in terms of technique and skills,to the combos he was putting together against Randy,Schaub and Mir.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:55 am

    Only a UFC fanboy who purposely sets out to discredit anything that happened outside of the UFC would try and make the claim that the Nog that showed up in the UFC was anywhere close to the Nog that fought in Pride.

    Nog in Pride had quicker hands, better takedowns, was much better on the ground, he had much better footwork and he was far more durable. He has more power now because he's bulked up and he moves his head a little better, that's it.

    The "quite young for a HW to peak" argument is very strange considering there's only a handful of HW's whose peak has come after their 32th birthday and none of them began fighting before they were 30 with 1 exception. Just to look at UFC HW's champions, Frank Mir is 33 and past his best, Tim Sylvia was done at 33, Arlovski is 33 and done, Barnett is 34 and past his best, CroCop was past his best at 33. Cain is 30 now, I doubt he'll still be as good in 3 years, same way JDS won't be as good in 6 years.

    Looking at the ones who's peaks came after 32, Carwin is now 37 and he's past it now but he didn't start fighting til he was 30, same goes for Lesnar so they're different cases. Fighters have a shelf life. Generally it's about 10 years from start, through peak, and then the slide. Some get a little bit longer, others get shorter if they take a lot of punishment as Nog did. Couture was done at 44 but he didn't start fighting til he was 34. He stuck around for 3 extra years, got his ass handed to him a few times, got a lucky decision in a fight he lost to Vera and fought a corpse and blubber mountain James Toney and then got KO'd by Machida. But he was done at 44 and had he started his career at 20-22, he'd have been done by his early 30's. Probably even earlier if he'd fought more regularly. Daniel Cormier is another one who's peak will come after 33, as he is now, but he didn't start fighting until he was 30. Werdum is the only notable HW over 32 who you could say is in his prime but he's an exception, rather than the rule.

    If you look at most list of the top 10 HWs in the world right now, those on the list over the age of 32, with the exception of Werdum, are all past their best.

    It's not just at HW though, like I said, fighters have a shelf life.

    Dan Henderson is the only guy that can legimately claim to have gone past the 10 year mark of constantly fighting the very best fighters in the world, and still be able to compete with, and beat, the best in world. Anderson's been in the sport as long as Hendo but didn't really begin to face elite competition until 2006. 10 years ago Hendo was fighting the Nog and Arona, his last fight was against Shogun. Those in between are a who's who. Nobody has fought a list of people like Henderson, win or lose.

    If the GOAT isn't Fedor, it's Dan Henderson based on the belts he's won, his win-loss record when taking into account his list of opponents, his ability and willingness to fight across 3 weight class - in two of which he's well undersized, his list of wins and his longevity.




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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:00 am

    payneNglory1 wrote:200 lbs isn't a MW though,it's a LHW.

    We've done this before,% wise lots of fighters cut as much or more weight.

    As I said,if that's what he needs to do to stay at LHW and he can do it successfully and make weight come weigh in time,then I still don't see a problem.

    You weigh in at 205 or under on weigh in day,then you are a LHW.

    Plus the UFC have said they don't want JJ fighting at HW.


    Sun,we'll have to agree to disagree on those fights mate,because I can't agree.I don't think constantly moving left with your hands at chest height,throwing loads of single left jabs and knees from the clinch,is close in terms of technique and skills,to the combos he was putting together against Randy,Schaub and Mir.

    You name 1 205er who walks around at 200? Most 205er's walk around at 220-225. Jones is 10-15lbs heavier than that. Nobody cuts as much as Jones in terms of what he's cutting(or indeed in general). Some cut water weight or muscle mass, he's cutting natural weight. And like I said, nobody else diets like he does, or does the sauna sessions he does. He's a HW who's scared to fight people his own size.

    The UFC don't want Jones fighting at HW because they know he'll get destroyed by any of the top HW's and just like Brock Lesnar the bubble will burst and the hype will die. Although it really wouldn't be a loss to them because he's not a draw. Nobody cares about watching him fight.


    Comical stuff in terms of Nog's stand-up as well by the way. Almost as comical as your HW peak argument.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  redmeanie77 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:30 am

    rudeboyben84 wrote:
    redmeanie77 wrote:










    Fighters nowadays are much better than they were before. There is just so much in MMA that techniques are just evolving so much and in such a young sport aswell.


    Even discussing GOAT at this stage is absurd.

    I don't see why we can't have a GOAT right now, the sport will have its history, Fedor or Anderson might not stay the GOAT forever but people will recognise Fedor/Anderson stayed as the greatest untill the next fighter came along and who knows it could be 10 or 20 years before anyone surpasses them.

    Think about it, the level of athlete might be getting better and techniques will evolve but the opponents will also improve so if could be a long time before anyone looks that dominant for so long



    Because fighters are all evolving and are getting so much better so fast, the level of competition is also improved even to what it was 4-5 years ago.


    The sport is still on a steep curve in terms of evolvement, it will start to level eventually but not there yet. So really whoever is P4P now is actually the greatest of all time, unless you want to start comparing weak eras in the past to strong eras now. Then it becomes a fanboy shit throwing contest. Laughing
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:05 pm

    The arguement that todays generation are better than the last has been going in boxing since it began and there is no way to prove it one way or the other.

    Sports with recorded stats like Sprinting, Jumping, Throwing that have clearly defined records are going up as time goes on so it would suggest athletes improve every generation and IMO this applies to MMA too. But remember its all about comparison to who was around at the time and not could a fighter from the 1900's beat a fighter from 2012...

    Anyway I though id break down Fedor and Anderson's career records and see if people are seeing Fedor through rose tinted glasses because I have a feeling Andersons record might already be better...
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:32 pm

    Cant find a good way to instert a table or graph or something but after breaking down their wins and losses im pretty confident that Anderson has beat Better opposition that Fedor.

    People have to remember that Unbeaten streak of Fedors wasnt all title defences, Andersons record hasnt been padded with an easy fight apart from Irvin.

    If you just did a list of their wins again big name guys, eliminating the cans Anderson would have more quality wins, and I guarentee if you dig a bit deeper you fill find Anderson fought those top guys at a time when they were coming off wins or earning title shots where as some of the great wins Fedor has are better on paper than they were

    The 2nd Coleman fight was pointless,
    Randleman had KO'd Crocop but was clearly past his best (including the Fedor fight he won 2 of his next 11)

    I hope for Fedor if they fought, im a bigger fan of his but people are brushing over facts I think. Anderson is the better fighter I think though as I said before its so close a loss to Sonnen would tip things in Fedors favor.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Cowboys From Hell on Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:15 pm

    The thing for me Ben, Anderson has dominated his Division no question but what Fedor achieved is incredible I mean Fedor dominating the HW's would be like Anderson dominating the HW's both are a similar size.

    Sure Fedor has some poor fighters on his resume but the same token so does Anderson names like Irvin, Cote, Leites and so on. For me It's the fact Fedor didn't have to be a HW that swings It for me.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:51 pm

    Cowboys From Hell wrote:The thing for me Ben, Anderson has dominated his Division no question but what Fedor achieved is incredible I mean Fedor dominating the HW's would be like Anderson dominating the HW's both are a similar size.

    Sure Fedor has some poor fighters on his resume but the same token so does Anderson names like Irvin, Cote, Leites and so on. For me It's the fact Fedor didn't have to be a HW that swings It for me.

    I dont really like the Fedor is a Lhw case, Tyson could have been a cruiserweight, doesnt enhance his legacy for me or make him a top 10 heavy because he was small.

    If you look at the fact Fedor fought a list of lighter fighters like Lindland, Arona, Babalu, Crocop and Nog were his size, Hendo, a handfull of smaller Japanses guys etc.. it sorta rules out the fact he fought at Heavy.

    I think Anderson would have less cans and more quality on his record, but not by much, have a look yourself and see what stage of their career their great wins were... Andersons record is better id say. Remember Anderson fought at Ww. Id say they are 1 weight class apart naturally but guys like Evans say he is better not cutting weight so we cant assume Fedor would have been a better Lhw than a Heavy and give him credit for that.

    Most think Fedor lost to Arona a fairly average sized 205er, and he got KO'd by a smaller than average Mw, yeah he beat Lindland but his record against smaller guys doesnt suggest he would have been a better Lhw when his speed advantage had gone.

    Would have loved to see him fight at Lhw against Prime Liddell.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  payneNglory1 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:10 pm

    Anfield,with regaurds to the peak years statement,all i'm saying is I believe 27-28 is to young to claim a HW has peaked,early 30's is closer IMO.

    Bas won KOP at 30 and the UFC title at 34
    Coleman won UFC 10 at 32 and the Pride GP at 36
    Randy won UFC 13 at 34 and his last title at 44
    Mo Smith won his title at 37
    Randleman won his UFC title at 29
    Timmeh won the belt at 30
    Mir won the interim belt at 29
    Nog won the interim belt at 32
    Brock was 30
    carwin 35
    Cro-cop won the GP at 31 and ken Shamrocks 1st title wasn't until he was 31




    Before the Rashad fight,JJ said he walks around at almost 230lbs

    http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=news.detail&gid=398330

    so do Forrest,tito,Rampage and many more LHW's,plus % wise he's not even close to some of the lighter fighters,like GSP,who claims he walks around at 200+,Sherk 185-190,Sonnen 217,your boy Alves 200lb,there's loads of fighters that cut more than JJ,but again as long as they make weight,(which isn't always the case with your boy alves, who just happens to cut more weight than JJ as well)there shouldn't be a problem.

    The only ones that have a problem with JJ,are just the ones that don't like him and keep getting butt hurt watching him destroy all of their favorite fighters.

    http://www.mmamania.com/2012/3/2/2839067/ufc-fx-2-weigh-in-results-thiago-alves-gains-30-pounds-three-hours-dolce-diet
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:32 pm

    payneNglory1 wrote:Anfield,with regaurds to the peak years statement,all i'm saying is I believe 27-28 is to young to claim a HW has peaked,early 30's is closer IMO.

    Bas won KOP at 30 and the UFC title at 34
    Coleman won UFC 10 at 32 and the Pride GP at 36
    Randy won UFC 13 at 34 and his last title at 44
    Mo Smith won his title at 37
    Randleman won his UFC title at 29
    Timmeh won the belt at 30
    Mir won the interim belt at 29
    Nog won the interim belt at 32
    Brock was 30
    carwin 35
    Cro-cop won the GP at 31 and ken Shamrocks 1st title wasn't until he was 31




    Before the Rashad fight,JJ said he walks around at almost 230lbs

    http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=news.detail&gid=398330

    so do Forrest,tito,Rampage and many more LHW's,plus % wise he's not even close to some of the lighter fighters,like GSP,who claims he walks around at 200+,Sherk 185-190,Sonnen 217,your boy Alves 200lb,there's loads of fighters that cut more than JJ,but again as long as they make weight,(which isn't always the case with your boy alves, who just happens to cut more weight than JJ as well)there shouldn't be a problem.

    The only ones that have a problem with JJ,are just the ones that don't like him and keep getting butt hurt watching him destroy all of their favorite fighters.

    http://www.mmamania.com/2012/3/2/2839067/ufc-fx-2-weigh-in-results-thiago-alves-gains-30-pounds-three-hours-dolce-diet

    Bas and Mo both fought in an era of little to no competition, mostly with open weights. None of them would be HW's if they fought today. They are all 6'1, 6'2 and weighed between 200-215 when they fought.

    Coleman was 32 when he started fighting, Couture was 34. Their careers started late. I explained this yesterday, was it too difficult for you to understand? Same goes for Carwin and Brock.

    Randleman and Mir won their belts at 29, how does that prove your theory that HW's don't peak in the late 20's as Chesty said about Nog? It doesn't, you're proving his argument while attempting to back up your baseless argument.

    Nog was done when he got to the UFC. And the HW division was piss poor. CroCop won the GP at 31, that was his peak, 2 years later - at 33, he was done. Again, this all disproves your comical argument.

    A fighters peak is relative to when he starts fighting. If he starts fighting in his late teens/early 20's, his peak will come in his mid to late 20's and he'll slide after 30.


    Nobody cuts more than Jones, who cuts 35lbs of natural body mass to fight. Others cut muscle mass and water weight. Alves has the frame of a LW under those pecs. He's a small guy who has the mentality of a body builder. Jones has the frame of a HW and hides from people his own size. Given that you've never competed in any sport which requires weight cutting I wouldn't expect you to know the difference but I would expect you to stop pretending that you do. Jones walks around at 240 with no extra muscle on his body. The likes of Rampage and Forrest get fat between fights. Alves and Sherk are draining weight from muscle. Nobody diets to the extent Jones does, nobody trains to keep their weight manageable like he does. Jones' natural body carries 240. He's a HW. Whether or not he can make LHW is irrelevant, he fights at 205 to avoid the guys his own size. If GSP was to cut to 155 would anyone be impressed? What if Cain cut to LHW? Would every jump up and down and proclaim him a future GOAT? No, they'd call him a coward for not fighting at HW.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  payneNglory1 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:07 pm

    Not difficult to understand at all,just another case of you running with things that weren't said.

    I never said Nog peaked at 33,I asked if he was done at 33,I also never said anything about him being faster,his ground game improving or anything like that,I said i think his overall game was more complete with the improvements in his striking game and head movement.I think his striking game looked a lot better in the 3 fights i mentioned,compared to any of his earlier fights.

    but don't let that stop you.

    Chesty didn't claim anything about peaking in their late 20's

    Sorry but I don't buy that the fighter we see today, often referred to as "Zombie Nog" is better than the young world #1 fighter who got his eggs scrambled by Fedor. was his comment.

    which is fair enough,after that,I asked a question and didn't get an answer,he might not think that Nog peaked then,we don't know because he never said,like you claim.

    Impressive stuff though,that I'm proving Chesty correct in an argument that never happened.


    Laughing to difficult to understand Laughing

    I do love your little digs though,they always bring a smile to my face.


    as for the peak years,your talking as if your opinion is based of fact,when it's not,it's not as if a 50 year old can go until he's 60 or a 16 year old is done at 26.

    I don't think it would be wrong to say the average male's physical peak could probably range from 25 - 35.

    I would say(this is just opinion again and talking about myself)that at 25 your faster,but at 35 your stronger.

    I have read though that a male hits his peak for gaining muscle in his 30's,and that men lose 5 lbs of muscle per decade after the age of 40. According to those harrowing numbers, by the age of 60, most men will have 80% less HGH in their system than when they were 20.

    have you nothing else to fall back on when on a fan board discussing the sport.

    I did box mate,Draycotte boxing club for 4 years and I've done plenty of other sports,but you are correct,when it comes to weight cutting,it's something I never did.

    The conversations on subjects that I've not experienced myself,I do try and read the shit loads of information that's out there,before making opinions though.

    This would be a pretty slow shitty board if we all had to personally experience everything in the sport before we could talk about the sport wouldn't it.

    I know you have a strong Judo background and train with fighters occasionally,but what's your pro MMA record like that gives you such a great insight into the mind of the UFC champion?

    Laughing there we go again,Pretending,that would surely be like,saying you know that nobody diets like JJ,knowing what JJ does in training,what he walks around at,what he's thinking,what his body size should carry and what he's scared of.






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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  thebadgersbits on Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:02 pm

    JJ said himself on fight night against evans he weighed in at 219 quite an impressive weight gain from the weigh in ,

    The only time i have ever cut weight is when i take a shit
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:47 pm

    thebadgersbits wrote:JJ said himself on fight night against evans he weighed in at 219 quite an impressive weight gain from the weigh in ,

    The only time i have ever cut weight is when i take a shit

    He was 219 when he was weighed on the day of the fight, that was around noon. He fought 10 hours later and walked in at over 230.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:49 pm

    payneNglory1 wrote:Not difficult to understand at all,just another case of you running with things that weren't said.

    I never said Nog peaked at 33,I asked if he was done at 33,I also never said anything about him being faster,his ground game improving or anything like that,I said i think his overall game was more complete with the improvements in his striking game and head movement.I think his striking game looked a lot better in the 3 fights i mentioned,compared to any of his earlier fights.

    but don't let that stop you.

    Chesty didn't claim anything about peaking in their late 20's

    Sorry but I don't buy that the fighter we see today, often referred to as "Zombie Nog" is better than the young world #1 fighter who got his eggs scrambled by Fedor. was his comment.

    which is fair enough,after that,I asked a question and didn't get an answer,he might not think that Nog peaked then,we don't know because he never said,like you claim.

    Impressive stuff though,that I'm proving Chesty correct in an argument that never happened.


    Laughing to difficult to understand Laughing

    I do love your little digs though,they always bring a smile to my face.


    as for the peak years,your talking as if your opinion is based of fact,when it's not,it's not as if a 50 year old can go until he's 60 or a 16 year old is done at 26.

    I don't think it would be wrong to say the average male's physical peak could probably range from 25 - 35.

    I would say(this is just opinion again and talking about myself)that at 25 your faster,but at 35 your stronger.

    I have read though that a male hits his peak for gaining muscle in his 30's,and that men lose 5 lbs of muscle per decade after the age of 40. According to those harrowing numbers, by the age of 60, most men will have 80% less HGH in their system than when they were 20.

    have you nothing else to fall back on when on a fan board discussing the sport.

    I did box mate,Draycotte boxing club for 4 years and I've done plenty of other sports,but you are correct,when it comes to weight cutting,it's something I never did.

    The conversations on subjects that I've not experienced myself,I do try and read the shit loads of information that's out there,before making opinions though.

    This would be a pretty slow shitty board if we all had to personally experience everything in the sport before we could talk about the sport wouldn't it.

    I know you have a strong Judo background and train with fighters occasionally,but what's your pro MMA record like that gives you such a great insight into the mind of the UFC champion?

    Laughing there we go again,Pretending,that would surely be like,saying you know that nobody diets like JJ,knowing what JJ does in training,what he walks around at,what he's thinking,what his body size should carry and what he's scared of.






    The stupidity of this post is absolute mind-blowing. Stick to selling windows.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  payneNglory1 on Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:53 pm

    "Eh? Eh? Eh?" "Ya do do dat dough don't ya dough"

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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  1972-casual on Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:57 am

    So, who is the GPOAT, The Greatest Poster of all time?

    Candidates are:

    Payne
    Anfield
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    Fearlesspirhana (what happened to him)
    Remeanie

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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:39 pm

    Though it was worth breaking down the big fights to shatter the Fedor Myth and show Anderson as the better fighter... They both have similar amounts of big wins so when they beat these big name fighters has to be looked into

    Nog twice is Fedor's greatest achievement no doubt. Both fights were an incredible achievement as Nog only had one other career loss (to Hendo)

    For comparison Anderson beat Rich Franklin twice when he was number 1 ranked (same as Nog was 1st time) and then number 2 ranked (same as Nog in the rematch) Franklins only other loss being to Machida so very similar to the Nog wins.

    So thats Fedor's career achievement nearly matched already, Whos next? Crocop? Hendo was a bigger win than that without a shaddow of doubt.

    Look at other ones of Fedors wins too,

    Arona a Lhw - who would have won under unified rules or Pride rules and still to this day its considered controversial by some

    Babalu a Lhw would could make Mw and has fought at 195lbs

    Lindland is a Mw

    Randleman while a big name again was well past his best

    Coleman too, he was on the wrong side of 40.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    Fedor is what he is, the best Hw ever but when you go through his record with a fine toothcombe he doesnt stack up to Anderson and I dare say if you looked at their computerised stats, accuracy etc.. Anderson would overshaddow him in nearly every aspect of the game.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    You could try to break Andersons record down as I have Fedors but they guys he has been fighting (apart from Irvin) are all genuine number 1 contenders,

    Okami - in his Prime, Number 1 contender

    Belfort - Some say fast tracked but top 5 ranked by most

    Sonnen - In his Prime, Number 1 contender

    Maia - 1 career loss to Marquardt, beat Sonnen the fight before

    Forrest - *Coming off a loss in a title figth, but a Former Lhw champ who had beaten Rampage and Shogun prior to the fights before he lost his title.

    Leites - Legit contender with win over Nate, only 1 career loss

    Cote - Again legit contender 5 fight spree to earn shot.

    Irvin - Is what he is then a 14-4 Lhw banger, a decent enough test for Anderson testing the waters, on a 2 fight winning spree, certainly better than a lot of the Cans Fedor was Fed while Pride champ.

    Hendo - KO'd Fedor, that is all

    Franklin - Future Hof'er

    Marquardt - number 1 contender in his prime

    Luter - number 1 condender in his prime

    Franklin - Future Hof'er

    Leben - a 15-1 KO artist, this was a number 1 contender fight for him too

    ---------------------------------

    Andersons current UFC run is unbelievable, I dont even have to go back and dig up old wins over legends at the start of Andersons career. Anderson got the title and defended it time and time again against Legit opposition, Fedors legendary streak he mustered a total of 3 times, Nog, Crocop and Hunt...

    There were some tough fights again old lenends but a lot of Cans and untested fighters, Zulu, Kohsaka, Ogawa, Goodridge, dont forget 0-1 Nagata or 4-2 Valavičius... Fedor was fed Cans in his prime as champ to bulk out his record. He didnt face half the fighters in their primes that were legit threats that Anderson did.

    Id love someone to bring up their records and make a propper case for Fedor based on who they beat... I dont see them as equal.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  payneNglory1 on Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:27 pm

    WOOOW Ben,don't go there mate,some can't handle criticism of stars of the past. Very Happy

    I've claimed this before about a few Pride stars and it was met with,well you could say,with a frosty reception,but then after all I'm just a fanboy Laughing .

    I myself,have got lost in the mystique that is fedor at times and I said fedor is the GOAT,but when you do look at the records,I think you are dead right Ben,when you break down Fedor's run,it doesn't really match up with Silva's(nor GSP IMO)

    but what Fedor had over them,was the same thing that Chuck had,you were always guaranteed an exciting performance and he just had a style about him that was so easy to love.

    Also because the sport was still young,and fans weren't as educated in what they were actually watching back then,people didn't see these Japanese freakshow fights as joke fights,like they would if say JDS took on a MW,LHW in an open fight,or fought a 400lb sumo,or a 7ft pro wrestler etc in today's game.

    Fans just saw the David and Goliath thing going on,(where Fedor was mostly seen by fans as David,even though during his pride career,you can count the legitimate HW challengers,who were bigger than him on one hand)and were more interested in the spectacle and not the sport,it was to some like a real life comic book happening in front of there eyes,so to most fans,those were still seen as great wins when they happened,and elevated the greatness of him,instead of having the adverse effect it would have today.

    Because we enjoyed them so much at the time and many of those moments will always be great MMA past memories,it becomes hard to want to discredit or believe anything bad about them today.

    So add that on to the length of his undefeated run,in which Fedor always looked impressive,it's quite easy to overlook things and just see him as the GOAT.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Cowboys From Hell on Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:05 pm

    I'm about to agree on the one thing you picked up on there Payne GSP has the superior record compared to both and will probably go down as the GOAT when he calls It a day. His record trumps both Fedor and Anderson's on paper even now I might add. Fitch, Hughes, Alves, Penn & Shields were not only the NO 2 men at the time but all P4P Top 10 at the time not forgetting the wins over Sherk, Koscheck x2, Karo, Trigg, Serra & Hieron.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  manschesthair_utd on Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:54 pm

    ben why did you leave out top 4 rank Timmeh and #2 rank Arlovski?
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:49 am

    rudeboyben84 wrote:Though it was worth breaking down the big fights to shatter the Fedor Myth and show Anderson as the better fighter... They both have similar amounts of big wins so when they beat these big name fighters has to be looked into

    Nog twice is Fedor's greatest achievement no doubt. Both fights were an incredible achievement as Nog only had one other career loss (to Hendo)

    For comparison Anderson beat Rich Franklin twice when he was number 1 ranked (same as Nog was 1st time) and then number 2 ranked (same as Nog in the rematch) Franklins only other loss being to Machida so very similar to the Nog wins.

    So thats Fedor's career achievement nearly matched already, Whos next? Crocop? Hendo was a bigger win than that without a shaddow of doubt.

    Look at other ones of Fedors wins too,

    Arona a Lhw - who would have won under unified rules or Pride rules and still to this day its considered controversial by some

    Babalu a Lhw would could make Mw and has fought at 195lbs

    Lindland is a Mw

    Randleman while a big name again was well past his best

    Coleman too, he was on the wrong side of 40.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    Fedor is what he is, the best Hw ever but when you go through his record with a fine toothcombe he doesnt stack up to Anderson and I dare say if you looked at their computerised stats, accuracy etc.. Anderson would overshaddow him in nearly every aspect of the game.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    You could try to break Andersons record down as I have Fedors but they guys he has been fighting (apart from Irvin) are all genuine number 1 contenders,

    Okami - in his Prime, Number 1 contender

    Belfort - Some say fast tracked but top 5 ranked by most

    Sonnen - In his Prime, Number 1 contender

    Maia - 1 career loss to Marquardt, beat Sonnen the fight before

    Forrest - *Coming off a loss in a title figth, but a Former Lhw champ who had beaten Rampage and Shogun prior to the fights before he lost his title.

    Leites - Legit contender with win over Nate, only 1 career loss

    Cote - Again legit contender 5 fight spree to earn shot.

    Irvin - Is what he is then a 14-4 Lhw banger, a decent enough test for Anderson testing the waters, on a 2 fight winning spree, certainly better than a lot of the Cans Fedor was Fed while Pride champ.

    Hendo - KO'd Fedor, that is all

    Franklin - Future Hof'er

    Marquardt - number 1 contender in his prime

    Luter - number 1 condender in his prime

    Franklin - Future Hof'er

    Leben - a 15-1 KO artist, this was a number 1 contender fight for him too

    ---------------------------------

    Andersons current UFC run is unbelievable, I dont even have to go back and dig up old wins over legends at the start of Andersons career. Anderson got the title and defended it time and time again against Legit opposition, Fedors legendary streak he mustered a total of 3 times, Nog, Crocop and Hunt...

    There were some tough fights again old lenends but a lot of Cans and untested fighters, Zulu, Kohsaka, Ogawa, Goodridge, dont forget 0-1 Nagata or 4-2 Valavičius... Fedor was fed Cans in his prime as champ to bulk out his record. He didnt face half the fighters in their primes that were legit threats that Anderson did.

    Id love someone to bring up their records and make a propper case for Fedor based on who they beat... I dont see them as equal.

    A few small things.

    Leben vs Anderson wasn't a number 1 contender fight. Leben was fed to Anderson to give him a good entrance into the UFC and then a vote took place on the UFC website the day after the fight to pick an opponent for Franklin. Anderson won the vote on the back of people who had no idea who he was 24 hours previously being impressed by him beating Leben.

    Luther wasn't a number 1 contender, he beat a bunch of has-beens on TUF to get a shot and then missed weight and gassed after winning the first round.

    Nate the Grease got his title shot off the back of beating Dean Lister. Let's not pretend he got it because he was doing anything impressive or because he was any good. He got it because the MW division in the UFC was absolute dogshit up until Dan Henderson arrived over.

    Irvin is and was crap.

    Cote was a legit contender based on his run of wins, but let's not pretend he was any good? Same with Leites.

    Belfort was top 5 ranked? Based on what? Beating Terry Martin and a past it Matt Lindland? They were his only 2 fights at 185 in his entire career prior to Anderson. If he was ranked at all it was because the division is so thin. A good win for Anderson, but Vitor didn't deserve a title shot.

    Franklin, Henderson, Forrest, Sonnen, Belfort. Those are Anderson's big wins against fighters who actually did something note worthy in a major organization. Maia and Okami aren't top level fighters but they are definitely in the upper grouping of the second group.

    Arona, Nog, CroCop, Timmeh and Arlovski are Fedor's big 5. When compared to Anderson's they're more impressive.

    He also beat Coleman, and Randleman who are at least as good on the resume as Maia and Okami. And he beat Schilt, Hunt, Herring who was top 10(gave him the beating of his life) etc. There's also the small matter of a near 10 ten unbeaten run. Oh, and the fact that the vast majority of his opponents were a lot bigger than him, whereas Anderson fought guys who were, for the vast majority, smaller than him.

    Oh and attempting to compare Franklin to Nog is ridiculous. Nog was a far better fighter than Rich ever was.

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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:52 am

    manschesthair_utd wrote:ben why did you leave out top 4 rank Timmeh and #2 rank Arlovski?

    Probably because he was busy trying to shatter some myth and they didn't suit his argument.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:56 am

    Oh and just on this:

    "Arona a Lhw - who would have won under unified rules or Pride rules and still to this day its considered controversial by some

    Babalu a Lhw would could make Mw and has fought at 195lbs

    Lindland is a Mw
    "


    Fedor is smaller than Arona and Lindland. He just isn't arsed cutting weight. He could easily make 185 if he dieted, he could probably make 170 if he went on the Jon Jones diet of cowardliness.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:04 pm

    Anfields5thKing wrote:Oh and just on this:

    "Arona a Lhw - who would have won under unified rules or Pride rules and still to this day its considered controversial by some

    Babalu a Lhw would could make Mw and has fought at 195lbs

    Lindland is a Mw
    "


    Fedor is smaller than Arona and Lindland. He just isn't arsed cutting weight. He could easily make 185 if he dieted, he could probably make 170 if he went on the Jon Jones diet of cowardliness.

    Catch yourself on mate, Fedor could make 170lbs? Look at him vs Mw's again. He was massive compared to Hendo his frame was so much bigger, Lindland was far far smaller looking too. I accept Fedor could make 205 but I dont even think he could make 185 let alone 170lbs.

    Again I think you and others use the Fact Fedor fought at Hw has a plus to his career. I dont buy that, you are what weight class you fight in, Fedor is a 230lbs Heavy, Nog, Crocop etc.. there are other great Hw's his size so I wouldnt get caught up on his size because we cant assume he would have been better at 205 or looking like James Irvin trying to make 185.


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