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    Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

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    JStans1985
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    Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  JStans1985 on Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:13 am

    Hi everyone,

    Been a while since I've been on here, but Fedor's retirement got me thinking about P4P of all time (not just right now).

    I was always a huge fan of Fedor's, and always considered him (in my opinion) to be the P4P greatest of all time. Obviously he hasn't been the P4P best for a little while ever since Werdum, but P4P of all time takes in to account a career and not current form (IMO).

    Pre Werdum, I'm sure I wouldn't have too many people arguing that Fedor was the P4P best of all time, but obviously the 3 fight losing streak put a big dent in his record,. He was clearly on the decline and surely the P4P greatest of all time takes into account the fighter at their peak, which for Fedor ran from 2001-2009 going unbeaten and taking out every credible opponent.

    Another factor I do consider though, is that in recent times he hid from top contenders and I believe hid behind his M1 Global contract to stop going to the UFC. At his peak i'd have still backed him against the top UFC heavyweights, but obviously now he'd get his ass handed to him and so I did lose a little respect for him for contract talks always breaking down (only a little though, still love him!)

    Thought i'd get some other views on this, there are obviously many contenders out there, but do people agree with my view or is there another fighter that is more deserving of the crown?
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  manschesthair_utd on Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:19 pm

    yes he is, by a country mile.

    and about those UFC contracts, sure he could have signed to the UFC and fought better opponents, but i think he wasnt willing to sacrifice certain liberties just to fight for the UFC.

    I'm quite certain he wasn't hiding or afraid to fight in the UFC, just that he wasnt agreed to their terms.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Cowboys From Hell on Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:56 pm

    A big fat yes from me too.

    The fact he was a natural LHW maybe even MW by today's standards dominating HW still amazes me from his beat downs of Big Nog when beating Big Nog meant something same can be said of beating Mirko. Surviving the German suplex from Randleman then moments later slapping on a Kimura and submitting him and even in his latter days blasting through Sylvia to the highlight reel Knock Outs of Arlovski & Rogers.

    Sure I'm a huge Fedor fan but I don't see It any other way, It's just a shame he didn't call It a day after the Rogers fight you could see in that fight he had a lost a step or two.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  JStans1985 on Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:16 pm

    I see what your saying manschesthair, although it is a bit strange that the UFC manages to land most fighters, yet he was the big name they struggled with.

    I guess we'll never 100% know, just voicing my frustrations I guess that we never got to see him in the UFC (however in saying that, I guess we may have seen him get beaten even more if he'd have joined in recent times, so would have been better for him to join back in the day).
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  The_Axe_Emperor on Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:37 pm

    In short, yes.

    In long, certainly, yes.


    Had it not been for M-1 he would definitely have fought in the UFC. Read the interviews, he spoke very highly of the UFC, it was m-1 and that crook Yevgenj Kogan who nixed it
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:45 pm

    The_Axe_Emperor wrote:In short, yes.

    In long, certainly, yes.


    HAHA!

    Love it. And fully agree. Fedor's the best ever, by a distance. The mere fact that he was so much smaller than almost everyone he faced and dominated the best fighters in the world says it all.

    He likely could have made MW but he wasn't arsed, fought at HW and destroyed all comers.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  The_Axe_Emperor on Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:16 pm



    The fact that nobody has ever photoshopped those ice creams into penises is a testament to the respect the MMA world has for Fedor.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  sunthunder on Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:08 am

    I always look at it this way. Show me a fighter with two more significant wins than Fedors domination of Nogueira. Those remain the two best wins any MMA fighter has by far. GOAT.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  p4pnumber_1 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:59 pm

    Yes at the minute Fedor is the GOAT. But Anderson Silva is not too far behind him.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:40 pm

    Anderson's got a great record but he never fought anyone as good as prime Nog or prime CroCop IMO.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:46 pm

    Anderson and Fedor really should have fought to be honest. They're naturally about the same size, in the same age bracket. While people ramble on about GSP vs Silva that's not a realistic fight. Anderson is much older than GSP, and he's much bigger too so there's natural excuses built in for both if A) Anderson knocks him out in 14 seconds, or B) GSP wrestlefucks him for 25 minutes. It also wouldn't settle anything because there's still the Fedor factor and GSP is far too small to fight Fedor who would just destroy him.

    Anderson vs Fedor should have happened. Fedor would have destroyed him, but it should have happened so at least people would know just how good Fedor is.(and by people i mean UFC fanboys who believe Dana's drivel)

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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  1972-casual on Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:07 pm

    Not much love for Fedor on here then!!

    He probably is the GOAT up to now but I see that being surpassed sooner rather than later. I think within the next 2 or 3 years we will have recognise that modern MMA fighters are better.

    I can see Jon Jones going through the UFC HW division and taking the mantle sooner that people think.

    Don't think anyone else current other than Anderson could rival the moniker GOAT at this time but in 5 years don't think Fedor will still be revered as the greatest.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Once Mohawked Pete on Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:13 pm

    Fedor is IMO the undisputed GOAT, his dominance of a division he had no right to be fighting in, sets him apart. His fights against Nog were without doubt, the highlight of a stellar career. I will never forget my amazement that he went to the floor with a BJJ legend and not only survived, but absolutely destroyed him. Nor will I ever forget that Randleman suplex, how the fuck he went from being slammed on his head, to that Kimura, still amazes me, and I must have seen it about a hundred times at least. I would have loved to see him in UFC then, and recent losses against Werdum (stupid mistake cost him), BigFoot (giving away too much size/weight advantage), and a loss against Hendo that could easily have been a KO for Fedor, do not detract from a legendary career. I don't think we will ever see his like again. With regards to his GOAT status being surpassed, not so sure, of course MMA is moving on, and fighters are becoming more rounded and skilled, however, can anyone see a 225lb man, dominating the HW scene again? IF Jones moves to his natural weight class and dominates in the same way he has LHW, then, we may have another candidate, but let's not forget that Fedor was daddy of the HWs for best part of a decade.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  payneNglory1 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:36 pm

    Fedor will always be considered a great for me,and during a certain time in MMA he was without a shadow of a doubt"The GOAT".

    Fedor was the first well rounded HW in the history of the sport and became the bench mark for all of today's fighters.

    The beautiful,special thing about Fedor for me was,you just look at a couple of greatest wins on his record,Nog and Cro-cop,both greats of that time that were beasts at what they did,Nog a guy that you shouldn't go to ground with and Cro-cop a K1 level kickboxer.Even though Fedor had big advantages over each of them in other areas,and could of probably used those advantages to make an easier fight for himself,he usually didn't,he was so confident in all of his own skills,he'd challenge them at their own games and still end up beating them.

    I think he will be remembered amongst the MMA community for a very long time.

    But,and this is not intended as a dig at him or to play him down in anyway,it's just a thing that bugs me,Fedor and a lot of feats from the early days of this sport,things get wildly exaggerated and blown completely out of proportion IMO,when comparing to today's fighters and records.

    I agree that alot of things that people are comparing and claiming won't be done again,but I don't believe it's because a Prime Fedor is or was just that much better than any fighter now.

    It's more to do with,the sport is night and day compared to then,Fedor's game was a lot more advanced and well rounded than anyone around then,(which is a testament to him,his training and his mentality,and why he deserves all the credit)but compared to a lot of today's fighters it isn't.

    The overall talent level was very poor compared to today's top divisions,so that made it was easier for guys of his size to fight at HW.
    Randy was doing it in the UFC,Randelman,Coleman,Igor,Don Frye,Tank,shit there was huge list of smaller guys competing successfully at HW back then.But we know 90% of them wouldn't have a chance at doing it at their size in today's HW division,nor probably the LHW division either.

    Since the weight classes have been set and the talent and depth of talent in each weight class has strengthened ten fold,the size of fighters has become more consistent and balanced,so it would be ten times harder to try and achieve,and would hardly ever even be attempted in today's top game.

    The majority of the opponents on Fedor's record back then,were no where near as good,well trained,skilled,knowledgeable,able to afford full time training,trainers,doctors,nutrition,etc etc,as today's fighters either,so it was obviously a lot easier to put together those kind of records back then,when the majority of opponents in that record run,were basically,part time fighters or very one dimensional,uneducated fighters.

    Do you honestly believe a prime Fedor would of been able to go on a undefeated run as long as his,fighting in today's UFC?

    I believe he would still of had success,(I believe today he could still get a few good wins there)because he was just that good and ahead of his time,but I don't believe he could of had anywhere near the success he had in the past.


    For me Fedor still just holds the mantle of the GOAT simply because he has been the stand out fighter of his generation,which basically covers 12-13 years of a 19-20 year old sport,but Anderson Silva and GSP should always be mentioned in the same conversation,also JBJ wil be in those conversations if he continues to dominate the standard of fighter he has been,while clearing out a very solid division.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Once Mohawked Pete on Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:35 pm

    I understand where you are coming from Payne, and if Fedor (at his peak) was in UFC right now, I don't think he would have the measure of success or dominance that he did, but, you can only guage fighters against their peers, and Fedor was unequalled at that time, so far from glorifying his successes, IMO it is putting it into context, I wouldn't say that todays crop are better per se, just are enjoying the advances that Modern MMA has made. Comparing fighters of different eras is always going to be difficult, I think that if you transplanted the Fedor of then, into a fight against one of the top HWs in UFC, he would certainly hold his own, however, if that Fedor had just been starting out now, fuck me, we can only imagine how good that Fedor would become.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  payneNglory1 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:39 pm

    I think today's talent is head and shoulders better,not only due too training techniques,nutrition,etc but due to the fact it is now seen as a professional sport,it doesn't have the stigma attached to it anymore,so the numbers of top quality athletes that would never of dreamed of taking up the sport has multiplied 10 fold,also the amount of MMA gyms that have opened up(the last local NC show I went to,had about 16 gyms represented there from a 30 mile radius of the event) has made the total numbers of people attempting the sport for competitive reasons or just as a fun way to stay or get in shape massive.
    The interest in the sport and the amount of people involved at all levels is just crazy compared to 5-10 years ago,so the depth of talent involved now is unrecognizable to what it was then and I'm just talking about what I'm seeing in the states.

    The difference in size of talent pools from today MMA to that of ten years ago,is like you getting to pick a football team only using players born in Wales and me getting to choose them from Spain,you'll unearth a Ryan Giggs and a few talented players to fill your starting 11,while I'll be spoiled for choice narrowing my squad down to 24 players.

    I'm sure some will disagree with me on this as well,but also some of the talent from back then has improved a lot since,but it's hard to claim that when they are losing fights to new guys on their way up.

    I totally agree with Big Nog when he said after the Randy fight that he was a better more complete fighter now,than he ever was in the past now he was more confident in his stand up.

    Nog's head movement and overall striking game is a lot better now than it ever was when he was in Pride,but that's only natural since he never said 'ah fuck it,I know average fighters have tagged me on the chin plenty of times,but I survived them and showed the world I have a granite chin' no,he knew it was a big hole in his game,he continued fighting at the highest possible level,while working bloody hard to improve,and as much as he's helped bring young fighters like JDS on,I'm sure he is just as grateful of what he's took away from sparring with guys like that in his gym..

    Even from his 3rd fight with Herring and his fight with Timmeh in the UFC,his stand up was shocking,but you could start to see a massive improvement in his stand up in the Randy fight,the Schaub fight he looked great standing and even in his loss to Mir,it was his stand up that got him so close to the win.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  Anfields5thKing on Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:42 pm

    Payne, didn't you say not long ago that you believed Jones was in the discussion for GOAT?? Based on being a coward who fights people much smaller than him I might add.

    Would a prime Fedor go on an unbeaten run in the UFC now? Yes, without a shadow of a doubt. At either of his natural weight-classes, MW or LHW, he would be just as dominant. He wouldn't do it at HW but there's nobody at MW or HW that could touch him at his best.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  payneNglory1 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:12 am

    I don't think I've ever claimed JBJ was the GOAT,but I have claimed that if keeps beating top level fighters down like the way he has been,then he'll without a doubt be a serious contender for it.

    and I don't buy the coward fighting below his weight at all,if you make the weight on weigh in day,then I have zero problems with anyone fighting at that weight.
    If you choose not to,then fair be it,but don't expect me to rank you any different to any other fighter fighting in your chosen weight class.

    Fedor chose to fight at HW,so I don't discredit his work ethic or common sense by giving him shit for not getting his arse into gear,getting rid of that belly fat and fighting at LHW,nor do I give him special praise because he chose to stay at HW,he's never hit a scale at 205 or under,so he's a HW,that's what he chose to be and that's how he should be judged.

    Did you have a problem with Hendo fighting at MW,me neither,nor have I ever had a problem with GSP,Aldo,Silva,Sonnen,Tito,Maynard or any other fighters that cut weight successfully to fight at the division below their natural training weight or the weight us fans seem to think we know better than what the fighters themselves choose.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  The_Axe_Emperor on Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:24 am

    Get the popcorn in fellas, this gon' be good!
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  manschesthair_utd on Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:53 am

    Sorry but I don't buy that the fighter we see today, often referred to as "Zombie Nog" is better than the young world #1 fighter who got his eggs scrambled by Fedor.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:40 am

    I remember breaking down Fedor/Anderson/GSP career wins and losses back on 606 to show UFC fanboys how much more Fedor had achieved. I reckon if you matched their career wins and losses like for like Anderson and him are neck and neck now, in my eyes they are so close the outcome of the Silva vs Sonnen fight will determine wether Fedor is the GOAT or not. I would think a win as big as another clear cut number 1 contender could put him ahead but a 5 career loss at his age could see his challenge to be number 1 p4p would be over.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  payneNglory1 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:04 am

    manschesthair_utd wrote:Sorry but I don't buy that the fighter we see today, often referred to as "Zombie Nog" is better than the young world #1 fighter who got his eggs scrambled by Fedor.

    so do you think a 27-28 year old Nog had peaked then,and at 33 he was done?

    I personally think that's a bit young for a HW to have peaked.

    I'll give you,that I think his chin and powers of recovery might have declined over time,(his chin has been pounded and abused more than Tito's wife)but I'm not buying that his skill set and overall game hasn't improved.

    You show me 3(or any) fights from when you think Nog was at his peak,where he looked as comfortable or effective in his striking game,than the 3 more recent fights I mentioned.

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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  redmeanie77 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:08 am












    Fighters nowadays are much better than they were before. There is just so much in MMA that techniques are just evolving so much and in such a young sport aswell.


    Even discussing GOAT at this stage is absurd.
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  rudeboyben84 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:22 am

    redmeanie77 wrote:










    Fighters nowadays are much better than they were before. There is just so much in MMA that techniques are just evolving so much and in such a young sport aswell.


    Even discussing GOAT at this stage is absurd.

    I don't see why we can't have a GOAT right now, the sport will have its history, Fedor or Anderson might not stay the GOAT forever but people will recognise Fedor/Anderson stayed as the greatest untill the next fighter came along and who knows it could be 10 or 20 years before anyone surpasses them.

    Think about it, the level of athlete might be getting better and techniques will evolve but the opponents will also improve so if could be a long time before anyone looks that dominant for so long
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    Re: Fedor - P4P Greatest of all time?

    Post  sunthunder on Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:33 am

    payneNglory1 wrote:
    manschesthair_utd wrote:Sorry but I don't buy that the fighter we see today, often referred to as "Zombie Nog" is better than the young world #1 fighter who got his eggs scrambled by Fedor.

    so do you think a 27-28 year old Nog had peaked then,and at 33 he was done?

    I personally think that's a bit young for a HW to have peaked.

    I'll give you,that I think his chin and powers of recovery might have declined over time,(his chin has been pounded and abused more than Tito's wife)but I'm not buying that his skill set and overall game hasn't improved.

    You show me 3(or any) fights from when you think Nog was at his peak,where he looked as comfortable or effective in his striking game,than the 3 more recent fights I mentioned.



    Kharitonov
    Barnett II
    Werdum

    He packs a little more power than he did before, but he's also slower, both in handspeed and movement. He outlanded Kharitonov, beat the tar out of Barnett with knees and combinations, he dropped Werdum more times in one fight than anyone else has. He's a much less mobile fighter now, including on the ground, he's said before his hips stop him from effectively shooting for takedowns.

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