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    Post  Anfields5thKing Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:03 pm

    The_Axe_Emperor wrote:And as for not liking getting hit, NOONE likes getting hit by Shane Carwin, Brock has shown he has a better chin than Cain, who was rocked senseless by Cheick Kongo on multiple occasions.

    Brock hasn't shown any sort of chin at all.

    He ran away from Carwin who only landed one half decent punch and then hurled himself on the ground to avoid getting hit.

    Cain was rocked momentarily by Kongo and immediately recovered and got the takedown.
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    Post  Anfields5thKing Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:03 pm

    The_Axe_Emperor wrote:
    IamFluffykins wrote:Carwin didnt land clean, Kongo did. Doesnt really matter anyway, as I cant see Brock doing well at all standing with Cain.



    Carwin doesn't have to land clean.

    Yes, he does.
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    Post  Anfields5thKing Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:05 pm

    The_Axe_Emperor wrote:Brock's never been rocked. Cain has, and Brock's fought the hardest hitter in the sport.

    Brock has never been hit as hard as Kongo hit Cain. Cain recovered immediately. Brock took a half decent shot from Carwin, turned and ran away.
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    Post  Anfields5thKing Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:08 pm

    Cain has good enough wrestling to stop Lesnar's takedowns, far better cardio so he won't do a Carwin, and even if he does get taken down, Cain has a very strong BJJ game from training with Camarillo.

    If Cain takes Lesnar down, which he will certainly be able to, Brock has never shown he can fight of his back! He threw himself to the ground against Carwin and never looked likely to get back up until Carwin gassed. Cain won't gas. If Lesnar goes down, i believe Cain can keep him down.
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    Post  the_king Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:12 pm

    if brock loses where will he go he will be a former champ with a record of only 5-2.
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    Post  Anfields5thKing Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:14 pm

    If Lesnar loses then he fight Carwin again IMO. If he loses to Carwin then he'll quit.
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    Post  redmeanie77 Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:39 pm

    If Brock loses he will probably get an immediate rematch Razz But more than likely he fights Mir.
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    Post  the_king Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:45 pm

    i hope we do get a brock v mir 3 because the hype and trash talk between them in the second was immense.
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    Post  payneNglory1 Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:58 pm

    I can't see Cain taking Brock down to be honest,well not until Brock tires,I think with Brocks obvious size and power advantage plus the world class wrestlers that he trains with everyday,Brock wins in the wrestling department all day.
    I think Brock will take Cain down though,for me it's going to be a matter of if Cain can survive with Brock on top of him until Brock loses some steam.I think Cain needs to survive the 1st rd without taking to much damage to even the odds and give himself a good chance at winning.

    The way I see Cain beating him is by dropping him with a big shot and then pouncing for the finish ala Big Nog,or just pushing a high pace,stuffing Brocks shots and picking Brock off and taking him out,in the later rds,where I think Brock will gas.
    I would find it hard to believe,Brock being the size he is,is not to gas after 3 hard rds.
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    Post  redmeanie77 Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:38 pm


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    Post  ChelseaQuinsfan Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:14 pm

    I can't see Cain taking Brock down to be honest,

    Really? Brock has never shown real take down defense. He has never faced a wrestler like Cain before, a guy that's big, strong and very fast. Cain might be the first fighter Lesnar is facing that is quicker than him. When you look at the guys he has faced no one tried to take him down.

    Min-Soo Kim- He was taken down in 5 seconds and couldn't get back up.

    Mir- Same story as Kim really, except he got a lucky break when Lesnar gave him his leg.

    Herring- He was fucked from the first punch and couldn't recover.

    Randy- Randy was able to push him against the cage. He couldn't get the take down but he controlled Lesnar across the cage. He landed some good shots, if Cain lands those shots he can do a lot more damage.

    Mir- Same as the first fight except he didn't get a lucky break.

    Carwin- He never tried to take Lesnar down, he wanted to stand with him.

    So his takedown defence is unproven really. It has been mentioned before that Lesnar is top heavy, so if Cain grabs a leg I do think he can take Lesnar down.
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    Post  The_Axe_Emperor Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:27 pm

    ChelseaQuinsfan wrote:
    I can't see Cain taking Brock down to be honest,

    Really? Brock has never shown real take down defense. He has never faced a wrestler like Cain before, a guy that's big, strong and very fast. Cain might be the first fighter Lesnar is facing that is quicker than him. When you look at the guys he has faced no one tried to take him down.

    Min-Soo Kim- He was taken down in 5 seconds and couldn't get back up.

    Mir- Same story as Kim really, except he got a lucky break when Lesnar gave him his leg.

    Herring- He was fucked from the first punch and couldn't recover.

    Randy- Randy was able to push him against the cage. He couldn't get the take down but he controlled Lesnar across the cage. He landed some good shots, if Cain lands those shots he can do a lot more damage.

    Mir- Same as the first fight except he didn't get a lucky break.

    Carwin- He never tried to take Lesnar down, he wanted to stand with him.

    So his takedown defence is unproven really. It has been mentioned before that Lesnar is top heavy, so if Cain grabs a leg I do think he can take Lesnar down.



    While i agree that he hasn't showed anything special in terms of TDD, he did keep the Couture fight on the feet when Couture was trying hard for the takedown. Not many people have done that.
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    Post  the_king Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:34 pm

    i was actually hoping that randy would have getting a rematch with brock. randy was tiny compared to him and also managed to control the fight until he made a mistake.
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    Post  payneNglory1 Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:09 pm

    He trains with better wrestlers than cain,in the UFC he may not have faced one,but in training he faces them everyday.

    Brock supposedly stuffs the shots from Conrad,Tusch and many top ranked wrestlers that he brings in from the University of Minnesota for training all the time.

    This and the size and strength difference it what makes me think cain can't take a fresh Brock down,obviously as the fight progresses the chances increase.

    Don't get me wrong,Cain has Cormier to work with,who is an elite level wrestler and will obviously be a huge help,but overall i think Brock works with more,big,power house wrestlers on a daily basis,that he has to stuff takedowns from.

    We will see,I'm really looking forward to this fight,I love watching the little guys go at each other at 100 MPH,but you can't beat it when the very top big boys square off.


    Last edited by payneNglory1 on Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:13 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : not giving cains credentials enough credit)
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    Post  ChelseaQuinsfan Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:17 pm

    While i agree that he hasn't showed anything special in terms of TDD, he did keep the Couture fight on the feet when Couture was trying hard for the takedown. Not many people have done that.

    That's a fair point but Randy is a lot smaller than Velasquez and is tiny compared to Lesnar. It's nearly impossible for Randy to take Lesnar down. Randy does have good take downs, but he struggled to take Vera down at times. Vera does have good take down defense, but when you compare Randy's take downs on Vera to Jones taking Vera down you can see Randy's take downs aren't as good as they used to be.

    Payne I think only Conrad has better cred than Cain in wrestling. Tucsh for example is no where near as good a wrestler as Velasquez is in terms of college cred or MMA wrestling. He was out wrestled by Travis Wiuff. Also none of those guys are nearly as quick as Velasquez and don't mix striking with there takedown's. Conrad's takedowns are very different to Velasquez anyway. Conrad relies on shear power, and no one can beat Lesnar for power so really im not suprised that Lesnar stuffs his takedowns. Also, training with better wrestlers doesn't always benefit you. Take Fitch vs GSP for example. Fitch had a great wrestler in Kos to train with and it didn't help at all against GSP. GSP had no wrestler as good as Kos to train with.

    I think Velasquez should look at how GSP takes people down and follow that. GSP never uses strength to get the takedown, especially when he fights guys like Matt Hughes, Alves or even Sherk. He uses his speed and explosiveness and that's exactly what Velasquez should do. Velasuqez will NEVER take Lesnar down by trying to use power, if he does that not only will he fail, I think he might even gas but if he uses speed then he has every chance to get the takedown. Lesnar really needs to train with more explosive wrestlers in order to beat Cain because I don't think Cain is looking at Conrad's style of takedowns.
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    Post  redmeanie77 Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:32 pm

    Brock's coach Paulson talks about what went wrong for UFC 116, and talks about fight with Cain.


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    Post  manschesthair_utd Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:02 pm

    erm guys....


    i'm pretty sure Randy did take Brock down, even though it was for like 2 seconds he was on his bum..he still got him down.
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    Post  The_Axe_Emperor Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:06 pm

    manschesthair_utd wrote:erm guys....


    i'm pretty sure Randy did take Brock down, even though it was for like 2 seconds he was on his bum..he still got him down.




    Really? I don't remember that.


    Just watched it again, and Couture got taken down and mounted, then squirmed out, got Brocks legs and dragged him down, Brock was on the bottom for literally les than a second Rolling Eyes
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    Post  payneNglory1 Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:17 pm

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    Post  The_Axe_Emperor Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:21 pm

    I'm not really an expert on collegiate wrestling, but 50-10? Wasn't Lesnar 105-5 or something like that?
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    Post  payneNglory1 Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:35 pm

    I'm no expert either but I do know that Lesner and conrad were better wrestlers than Cain and had far more success.
    I think Brock is in the national wrestling hall of fame.

    Cain did beat Conrad once but Cain is two years older and it happened in Conrads freshman year.


    yeah he is in the hall of fame

    http://www.wrestlinghalloffame.org/wrestlers.php?wrestler=2477

    so is cole

    http://www.wrestlinghalloffame.org/wrestlers.php?wrestler=11832


    Last edited by payneNglory1 on Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  ChelseaQuinsfan Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:48 pm

    Im pretty sure he had a better record than that but I can't guarantee it.

    But at the end of the day, a lot of the time college wrestling doesn't have a huge effect on MMA wrestling. Ive read somewhere that Jon Madsen beat Brock Lesnar in a college wrestling match and he is 3 years younger and a lot smaller.

    Chuck Liddell had an impressive college wrestling career but would you say he is a better wrestler than Tito?

    GSP had no wrestling background at all and look at him now.

    There is a big difference between college wrestling and MMA wrestling and I do think Cain's style is better suited to MMA.
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    Post  manschesthair_utd Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:49 pm

    i'm just going by what i have seen in MMA, and i think Cain is a more functional wrestler than Brock...plus his wrestling days are like 4 or 5 years more recent than Brocks
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    Post  redmeanie77 Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:49 pm

    manschesthair_utd wrote:erm guys....


    i'm pretty sure Randy did take Brock down, even though it was for like 2 seconds he was on his bum..he still got him down.



    erm Chesty

    Im pretty sure Cheick fucking Kongo took down Cain.


    Actually he fucking slammed him!! Start of the 3rd round!
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    Post  redmeanie77 Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:54 pm

    Payne, Cain beat Cole in Konrad's sophomore year, Konrad had since beaten Cain in his senior year where Cain finished 4th in that tourney.

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